My 1000yd debacle; advice needed

[RMulhern]

Don't sell the .45/70 short!!
Agreed! But as I said as well load it for long range, and check for boolit instability at the longer ranges. Least thats what I thought I said.
BIC/BS

Bullshop

The BEST WAY I know to check stability is consistent hits on the target under varying conditions. At one time I thought that observation of bullet holes in wax cardboard target faces was THE IDEAL WAY to do this....but after reading Mann's book and research.....he clearly shows that the angle of entry through paper frames stationed at various distances may change in only a 6' distance!! So...it's right back to square one and relying upon consistent hits on the target face as the best way. And this all goes back to having a correct ROT for the bullet being used...as you are well aware of.

[Don McDowell]

fpm , yes I've shot 72 grs of Goex 3f express in my 75 CSA. With its 28 inch barrel its hurling the 530 gr rcbs bullet at 1275fps. I'ld imagine Johnny's load is probably doing about the same.

Sight picture, do to the post he's using, the wind, and probably mirage. All ganged up on him, it sounds to me like. I like a post or post and ball, but once you start stretching the targets past 5-600 yds , they cover to much of the target and make a consistent hold pretty tough to make.
Bullshop and FPM you both have said bullet stability can cause some huge problems . It's been my experience the postell holds up better at long range when cast from 20-1 or harder, when lobbed out of the 45-70.
Johnny just hang in there and keep trying different combinations. 1000yd shooting and doing it well is an art mixed with a goodly dollop of science, and it takes lots of trigger time to get to all come together.

[Lead pot]

The old Lyman 457-125 is about the most stable bullet at all ranges I found for the .45-70.
Yes it will take a few more ticks on the sight staff @ 1K but it will get there in good shape.

[Kurachan]

Johnny Bravo,
Was you shooting at 6X6, 6X8 or 6X10 targets?

[Johnny bravo]

Are ya confused yet?
BIC/BS

You bet I am. Clarify please.

FPMIII, I think I understand but am quite sure I don't. I would be grateful if you could shed more light about this bullet seating technique. Is it similar to what BS said above?

Kurachan, our NRA targets are actually 5'10in tall x 9'8in wide with the aiming mark 48in dia.

Gents, I would also be grateful if you would care to look at my new thread about cleaning. I sure apologise for being a right PITA. But I really have no local shooters to turn to where I come from. As a young, inexperienced shooter I am often out in the cold because all others in the range only shoot nitro in modern rifles and often know less than I do about BP. On many occassions mine is the first BP rifle most of them have even seen So, it has to be you gents across the pond that need to help me;wonderful thing, this forums

ATB.

[Kurachan]

At a guess, from your description, it would confirm your suspicion that you may not have been using nearly enough wind. If conditions take you off the target, then on a 6’x10’, if you missed the edge of the target by just an inch you would need a full 6 minutes more to reclaim the centre at 1000 yards. Assuming a true wind zero on the rifle, with the original eight minutes giving hits on the target, then depending on whether the shots that hit, were fired on the pick up or the drop off, then the wind required at the height of a gust could have easily been near 16 minutes or more. It is a shame some of the 7.62 shooters couldn’t share their knowledge and experience.

[Don McDowell]

Johnny from the sounds of things on your cleaning thread, the leading you had in your barrel wasn't doing you any favors.
You might want to revisit your wiping technique, and or bullet size and fit, and lube.

[RMulhern]

[QUOTE=Johnny bravo;521375]Thanks again BS and FPMIII.

FPMIII, your advice makes sense. I have just cut and copied what you wrote about the wind so I can print it and stick it on my notes folder. One thing though; you have asked me to ponder on several variables. My concern centres on the powder charge to begin with. Presumably a heavier load will give more velocity and hence flatter trajectory. However, I find loading even 70gr into the 45-70 case a challenge. Would loading anything more(like 75gr) cause the case to rupture during firing due to the any bulge caused by the compression? With my present load, all my cases have been reloaded a dozen times or more and are still holding strong. BTW, will shooting 75gr of BP make my teeth rattle

Johnny

Variables! Yes....that's what makes this 'game' so difficult, interesting, and to say the least...CHALLENGING!! In regards to a bulge upon the case and using 75 grs. or so of Goex or Swiss 3F...I have never had a case bulge with whatever compression that I needed to get a Postell bullet seated so it would chamber! With that being said....the Postell bullet that I use is slightly 'modified' in that when I had a custom mould made by Steve Brooks...I had him make the mould such that the upper two drive bands are at a dimension of .4495" which allows me to be able to seat the bullet outward two full lube grooves which also does not call for compressing the powder a great degree. Using this method....the bullet is slightly 'breech-seated' around 75% of it's total length; meaning there is that much of the bullet inside the bore! True 'breech seating' I might add is in my opinion the best method of obtaining accuracy with these cast bullets we shoot but the method is not to conducive to match shooting for one just doesn't have the time under match conditions of prone shooting to get the job done! The nearest thing to the method without too much hassle is when shooting PP bullets and when the bullet is only seated into the case about .125" and using bullets patched to bore size! Johnny....since you have stated that you are 'new'...personally this is no reflection upon you whatsoever; everyone has to start somewhere..but with this being said....I have no idea what experience you have in either reloading or casting bullets so again...up comes the word...VARIABLE! Experience can only be gained through application of procedures, whether it be reloading/casting or upon the firing line observing all of the events taking place. RECORD KEEPING...whether it be as to methods used while reloading and shooting are most imperative in this game of BPCR....and the degree to which you KEEP RECORDS....is most conducive to how you will eventually improve or digress in this game!! Noone loses in this game as long as you are enjoying yourself...and that's what it's all about!!

[Johnny bravo]

Thank you all. I do feel much better. It’s not the end of the world as I thought

FPMIII, that bullet seating idea sure sounds fascinating. I now remember reading something about it in one of Paul Matthews’ books. Until I get a custom mould that will be out of the question for me, but hey I am having plenty fun as it is. But in the meantime, I am going to try increasing the powder charge a bit more and experiment.

Yep, I am new to any form of shooting. I have only been shooting for 7 years or so and BPCR only since last August. I feel certain that I have come a long way since then considering the fact that I had/have no real life ‘mentors’ here in the UK except for you gents on the web. Not many shoot BPCR and I rarely even see another chap with a Sharps when I am on the range. As for notes, I do take plenty of it. In fact, I am the man when it comes to note taking. It’s because of the notes and voracious reading that I have managed to make it this far in such a brief time. No pun intended. However, I realize there’s so much I want to do with BPCR, which I know nothing about.

Rgds.

[catkiller45]

Johnny

I am curious as to what you were using as a front sight insert??????? I have always had my best luck with a standart post front insert..I tried the round sights but found I was getting too much error with this set up????

[martinibelgian]

Ditto on the alloy - use a harder one
Ditto on charge - use more. and if you have trouble getting it in either stop sizing your cases or purchase some Winchester brass - preferably both. I can get 80grs of Swiss no.4 in mine...probably more too.
BTW - 1,000 is MUCH harder than 600 - midrange is much more forgiving as to any alloy, MV spread and other issues - which will kill you at 1,000. And Stickledown is not exactly the easiest 1,000 yds range there is. Ask me how I know...
Chrono your loads, use a harder alloy - and try shooting next to an experienced shot so that you can learn from him. Wait out the conditions. Also - very important - shoot that 1st shot from a clean barrel off the target, it will only confuse you as it will NOT hit the same as shots fro ma fouled barrel. Maybe join HBSA and shoot their matches/practices. And then I'll see you there!
But yes, 45-70 will do it, no problem there. and with a Postell, no stability issue with the 1:18" twist at any velocity. You can even get that one to stabilize in a 1:22" twist...

[Bullshop]

Johnny
If for nothing else here is something for you to think about. Maybe best to not consider it fact but only my opinion.
As far as boolits slumping because of too soft an alloy, I dont thing so, at least not at the rate of excelaration you are shooting. The fact that your shooting good groups to mid range prooves that.
Other have said it is common for a load to shoot well to a given range then loose stability, but why does this happen?
It all has to do with spin, too little of it. Think about this. Remember when you were a kid playing with that big spinning top. You could get it spinning perfectly straight and if it had enough spin you could touch it and it would wobble a little the smooth out again. If it didnt have enough spin left to recover the wobbles would get worse intil it loast its center completely and tumblef off.
Now think about your boolit. Its spinning nicely pushing on its front (atmosfear) but slowing in its rps. As it drops to subsonic it takes a big bump as the sound wave catches it from the rear. The bump causes wobble. If you dont have enough spin to recover the wobble gets worse and the boolit finally goes tumbling off.
If you do have enough spin to recover while you had the wobble a couple things happened. First the BC dropped way down because the wobble had the effect of increasing cross sectional area of the bullet causing more drag which translates to increased rate of deceleration and more drop. The other biggy is wind drift. Because the wind has more area to push against it is shoving the boolit more thus causing more drift. Basicly what hapened is that the wobble turned your nicely efficiant boolit desing into a brick.
So what to do? Several things to do to aid in dealing with or avoiding completely the bump caused by transitioning from super sonic to subsonic.
#1 Start out and stay super sonic. Not likely with a BPC at 1000 meters.
#2 Start out and stay subsonic, no sonic transition = no bump
#3 have enough spin left at the transonic range that the boolit can recover from the bump.
Any velocity increase will affect #3. Thats why I origonally mentioned a 45/90. Sure you can kinda trick load the 45/70 I even offered some ideas but its just easier with the longer case. So you would think if a little is good a lot is better. Well those shooting long range with great success seem to have found a balance there too.
Being a note taker do a little study on the long range events being fired around the world. Note the caliber/cartridges being used to best affect. I think what you are going to see is at ranges past 800 yards the 45/90 and 45/110 will be turning in the best scores. Some of those may even be using a 1/16" twist.
I am not trying to discourage you at all but trying to help. I shoot a 45/70 long range rifle too, but like I said resort to trick loading of sorts rather than conventional fixed ammo. Read, shoot, take notes and when you can figure out what is going wrong when it goes wrong you will be on top of the game.
Remember now what I say is not gospel its just some light bulbs in one mans head.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[RMulhern]

Thank you all. I do feel much better. It’s not the end of the world as I thought

FPMIII, that bullet seating idea sure sounds fascinating. I now remember reading something about it in one of Paul Matthews’ books. Until I get a custom mould that will be out of the question for me, but hey I am having plenty fun as it is. But in the meantime, I am going to try increasing the powder charge a bit more and experiment.

Yep, I am new to any form of shooting. I have only been shooting for 7 years or so and BPCR only since last August. I feel certain that I have come a long way since then considering the fact that I had/have no real life ‘mentors’ here in the UK except for you gents on the web. Not many shoot BPCR and I rarely even see another chap with a Sharps when I am on the range. As for notes, I do take plenty of it. In fact, I am the man when it comes to note taking. It’s because of the notes and voracious reading that I have managed to make it this far in such a brief time. No pun intended. However, I realize there’s so much I want to do with BPCR, which I know nothing about.

Rgds.

Johnny

Maybe you don't know about this:


http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/

Plenty of 'mentors' there that will be willing to help you!

[Johnny bravo]

Catkiller, I am using a standard popsicle with a 2.75mm aperture. My eyes are relatively young, so I am ok with it. I really haven’t tried blade fronts yet. I find the popsicle much easier on the bullseye targets I shoot at.

Martinibelgian, Have you compared the Swiss 4 with the no.3 in a 45-70? My stock of Swiss 3 is coming to an end very shortly and I will have to call Pete to buy more. But as Swiss is going at £40 a kg, I can’t afford to experiment with the wrong grade. You input will be greatly appreciated. Oh yes, I have shot with the HBSA. However, their practice calendar for 2009 is mostly 50-100m; I believe they’ll be shooting long distance later during the year.

BS, a lot of good ideas but simply too much for my tiny head to take in at the moment. However, I see your point about the 45-90 and above. I will try slowly by increasing my existing loads.

Johnny

Maybe you don't know about this:


http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/

Plenty of 'mentors' there that will be willing to help you!

FPMIII, I do know about them. In fact, I did go see them at practice in July last year with my camcorder and notebook before I even started buying all the reloading stuff. However, helpful as they are, they shoot comps and advised me to come see them when I was proficient at shorter ranges or I would be disappointed in their matches. Good advice I think. So, I am still learning the ropes until I can shoot with them, hopefully soon.

[martinibelgian]

Sorry Bullshop - but increasing MV is a poor substitute for a more rapid twist, it just won't work with BP. And as to nose slump, from proper experience with bullets breaking the 1300 fps limit, they will shoot fairly well at midrange, but fall apart at longer ranges. Why? becuase the nose slump is a factor diminishing stability and causing a wobble, without which stability would have been sufficient for the range. consider that most rifles of the period had an even slower twist and shot heavier bullets - and it worked.
Also, at the Cape town 2006 WLRHSA, the 900m LR match was won by a shooter with a 45-70, shooting 67grs of Swiss no.4 - a pretty sedate load, but nevertheless he won - in windy conditions, and doing better than all those 45-90's, 45-100's etc..
Transition from supersonic to subsonic is at 200yds max, so according to your theory the load would have been unstable from 200yds onwards (just check on a ballistic calculator) - but accuracy is still decent at 600? Sorry, but I do have to disagree there. 18" twist is plenty, and then some. 16" might be (slightly) better at 1,000 under windy conditions and with heavier/longer bullets, but the difference is not like missing or hitting the target. The 18" twist will be more than adequate for a Postell (length 1.4"): It will perfectly stabilize bullets at up to 1.46"long out to 1,000 and more. IMO, unstability in this case will have another cause - if the problem is caused by it. Large variations in MV could also be a factor - the ES should be 10fps or less. Then there's wind reading, complicated at Stickledown by the nearby trees - it's not unusual to see wind flags pointing in different directions there... 1,000 is hard, no way around it.
Still - I do agree with one thing though: more powder will be beneficial! An MV of at least 1200fps, preferably 1250 (or more) would be better for LR shooting. You would be around 1150 right now with your load, guesstimating.

As to Swiss no.4 or no.3, for me the no.4 gives less and more easily manageable fouling - and fouling management (or lack of it) is also something which can kill you at long range, as it will give large MV variations which will cause quite a serious vertical spread - enough to miss the target. For 1,000, everything must be perfect. then again, if we wanted to do something easy, we would be playing golf...

[Johnny bravo]

Still - I do agree with one thing though: more powder will be beneficial! An MV of at least 1200fps, preferably 1250 (or more) would be better for LR shooting. You would be around 1150 right now with your load, guesstimating.

As to Swiss no.4 or no.3, for me the no.4 gives less and more easily manageable fouling - and fouling management (or lack of it) is also something which can kill you at long range, as it will give large MV variations which will cause quite a serious vertical spread - enough to miss the target. For 1,000, everything must be perfect. then again, if we wanted to do something easy, we would be playing golf...

With 65gr of Swiss.3 I was getting 1250fps plus or minus 4-5fps. That was last summer for a group of 20 shots. This January the same load dropped down to around 1185fps plus or minus 30-10fps. I understand this is due to the cold but with correct wiping technique can be made consistent.

MB, how much velocity do you get with your 80gr of Swiss.4 ?

[Don McDowell]

Johnny when your load was clocking 1250 with the the low spread, what were you doing for fouling control?
To drop 75 fps and get the 30 fps spread something had to change pretty drastic.
Need to fiugre what was different the first time and get back to doing that for your best longrange shooting.

[R. Dupraz]

Johnny bravo:

Man-O Man! My head started to hurt before I even got half way through the responses to your topic. If you aren't overloaded now, I'll be surprised. After having competed in small and big bore NRA competition for quite a while, the last seven or eight years have been dedicated mostly to long range ( to 1000 yd) BPCR shooting with a Shiloh 45x2.4.

After reading your inital post, a couple of things came to mind right off. And they were inconsistant fouling control and not reading the wind changes. But I'll come back to these later.

I am one who subscribes to the KIS principle and believe in begining at the begining. And after reading that you are relatively new to this sport, I don't mean this in a derogatory way at all. It's just that untill we get the simple basics mastered all these details just make the road longer and harder. There is a lot of good info offered here but as is offen the case some armchair theory also. The problem is, sorting it all out. For now, at least forget about the phase of the moon and the degree if tilt of the earth and just concentrate on getting a good load and shooting it well

1. Marksmanship Fundamentals -- probably already know about these. If not, get
a good shooting book , work on them, especially the "follow through" after
the shot. Critical with the BPCR.

2. Equipment -- Your 45-70 with it's 18 twist and the Postel will do just fine to a 1000.
It and your bullet have been long proven to have what
it takes. I used the Postel for two years. It performed very well in my
45x2.4 with anywhere from 1-20 to 1-30 alloy. Not to say that you can't
experiment though. Make sure that all sights are solid and tight. Check for
play in the adjustments. Find your mechanical zero.

3. Find a load -- at short range first, using a BP lube only. By adjusting powder
charge and seating depth of the bullet. Mine shoots best when the bullet
just touches the rifling with Goex Cartridge. Try different granulations
of powder. But only change one thing at a time. Get a BPC loading manual
if you don't already have one. The target doesn't lie.

4. Fouling control -- I use a blow tube and one dry patch after every shot.
Another method is wiping such as you are doing. In any case, the control must
be consistant and effective each time. A fouled bore will cause the trouble in
you initial post.

5. Reading Wind changes - Mirage is your friend, it will tell you the immediate
wind directional changes and strength. Wind flags are always behind. Get
a book if you don't already have one. Keep notes for each shot, noting the
wind/mirage speed and direction, the corrections you made and where the shot
impacted.

6. Spot your shots - either have a spotter on a scope or do it yourself with a
scope. Yes you can do your own spotting at a 1000 yds with these rifles. It's
absolutely necessary that you know where each shot strikes so that a valid
correction can be made. And don't get into the trap of chasing misses. I was
spotting for myself yesterday at the 700 during our monthly club shoot.

Hope all this is of some use. Just keep shooting and having fun.

Regards
R. Dupraz

[martinibelgian]

Johhny,

Seems like you have a 'fast' barrel - although the 2nd figure would seem to be more realistic to me, and more in line with the velocities I am getting. loosing 75fps just because of temp sounds like a lot - I'll presume that you also got another can of powder from another lot, which might be different (less powerful).

BTW, 80grs of no.4 behind a 530gr bullet gets me 1270 fps, with an ES of 9 in my rifle. Not great, but good enough.

With the information you are giving - and combined with your cleaning post, I'm leaning more towards a fouling management issue.
Wiping is good, but wiping too thoroughly between shots will also get you in trouble. I once really cleaned the bore on my rifle after every shot, and in no time I had leading issues. With a 45-70, 1 moist followed by 1 dry patch (on a brush) should be enough - you want some lube to remain in the bore. You do NOT want to patch it all out with the dry patch. I even get good results in 45-70 with a moist (not wet!)patch only, using the dry patch only to wipe the chamber.
Bottom line, try and see what works for your rifle, then be consistent.
Even with all the comments here, it still is all up to you - and don't forget that 1,000 yds will always be able to make you eat humble pie, especially when you think you got it all figured out.

[Johnny bravo]

Thank you all kindly for helping me out. Am much indebted to you all

RD, thank you for your post. There’s lot of advice in your post which I am already trying to learn and put into practice.

Don and MB, I raised a question about this drop in velocity on the Shiloh forums and was advised that it was due to the cold. When I fired that string at 1250fps the temp was at 21C and I was wiping only once between shots with a moist patch. The lower velocity was achieved in November when the temp had dropped down to about 10C. I was still wiping the same way, but my patches may have been too moist or even wet.

MB, you may be right about too much cleaning. I have been noticing that when I wipe for every shot with all those patches, my groups are not as good. Last month I fired six rounds without wiping at all and scored all in the black including 2x5s. This was at 600yds.

Then again, the very same morning prior to shooting the 1000yd, I was in century shooting 300yd. I fired 2x targets. Target one was fired with my usual wiping technique. I scored 1x5s and even made two misses!! Target two was fired without cleaning at all. I scored 3x5s including one V-bull and the rest were all 4s. That was for a total of seven shots. So, there really could be something about my wiping that is affecting my groups.