My 1000yd debacle; advice needed

[Johnny bravo]

Good morning all
Yesterday was my very first 1000yds shoot. I thought I had planned everything; weather report printout, trajectory tables, the regular 15min wind check with my cheapo anemometer; everything! But it was not to be as I found out..

The day was nice and clear at 12C. The wind was blowing from 11 to 5 o’clock averaging about 6mph but with varying gusts of upto 16mph every few seconds. I was shooting 65gr of Swiss no.3 behind a 535gr Postell. My rear sight was set at 198mins and windage at 8mins when fired the very first shot. It was in the black, a 4 at 2 o’clock. I was ecstatic. Next shot was a miss. Third shot was a 3 at 4 o’clock and shot 4 was a miss. Shot 5 was again a 3 at 11 o’clock and then it went down hill from there!

The remaining 10 shots were all misses. Not one hit the target. I managed to find a RO with a radio after the 8th miss and asked the butt crew where my last shot had gone. They told me it was a miss at 3 o’clock right. I though I would compensate for this and increased my wind to 10mins left. But again the shot was a miss. Increased wind to 12 mins and still a miss. Oh yes, there was plenty of mirage near the butts as well.

The only consolation was that lots of the TR shooters next to me with their 7.62mm were also missing the target. But we must have all been crappy shots.

I think the gusts had just picked up and I was not using enough wind? Maybe again, too much elevation? After juts one shoot I really don’t have the experience to know what went wrong. But would appreciate if any of you experienced shooters can shed some light as to what could have gone wrong.

ATB.

[zampilot]

I had a similar situation in HP once. I was adjusting the windage the wrong direction, too preoccupied with the "what the's.." to notice I turned the knob the wrong way and kept doing so.

[RMulhern]

Johnny

Here's some stuff we need to know:

1. Caliber? I assume it's .45/70 with the load and bullet used.
2. BT or wiping?
3. Bullet Alloy...homecast or commercial?
4. Air Temperture?
5. Humidity?
6. Primer?
7. Brass...annealed??...or not?
8. OAL cartridge? Bumping lands...or not??
9. Lube...home-made??? or commercial??
10. Rifle manufacture?

As for your 'debacle'....let me quote a line from QDU:

"It's not ususual for things not to go right...the first day on the job"!

[montana_charlie]

Did you consider the possibility that your sight(s) might be loose?

I can't know if you suffer from this, but I will make the statement in case it comes as 'news' to any who might be reading.

Globe sights are popular for BPCR rifles, and there are a number of styles in use. The 'Sharps style' uses inserts which have the thick rim around the upper half of the diameter.

Globe sights that use the 'Sharps style' inserts usually have the retaining spring on top of the sight. The spring is more than just a 'gate' which must be opened to change inserts.

The inserts are typically packaged on a metal 'card' and must be broken loose for use.
Many look at the resulting 'tit' on top of the insert as an irregularity that needs to be filed off.

If that filing job is too extreme, the spring on top of the globe cannot bear down on the top edge of the insert, and allows it to 'jiggle' a little within it's slot.

The movement of the insert may be too small to notice visually, but can have a severe effect at extreme ranges.

CM

[Johnny bravo]

Thanks for the replies

FPMIII, here are my answers to your query.

1. Caliber is .45/70
2. wiping- one damp patch behind nylon brush followed by another damp and then dry patch
3. Bullet Alloy –homecast 30:1
4. Air Temperture - 12-13C
5. Humidity- 80%
6. Primer? CCI LR
7. Brass -annealed
8. OAL cartridge- 2.99in just abt touching the lands.
9. Lube -home-made. Works well
10. Rifle manufacture – Pedersoli silhouette. Gives me good groups at 300 yds with the same ammo.

Thanks for the quip I am not defeated at all. I now wish my next day on the job to be successful

MC, the sights were checked. I am using a 'Dr.Goodwin' made by Rex Holbrook here in the UK. There was no play in the screws or movements. Front globe is a popsicle but I have used the same to good effect at 600yds.

Rgds.

[Bullshop]

Since it started out so good and consistantly got worse I would first consider two things, fouling, and changing wind conditions.
Would really be a big help to have a spotter calling each shot.
BIC/BS
After reading your second post I see you realy do need that spotter, and maybe a 45/90 with 1/18" twist.

[Johnny bravo]

After reading your second post I see you realy do need that spotter, and maybe a 45/90 with 1/18" twist.

BS, why do you say that? Please enlighten me as there's so much I don't know BTW, my 45-70 has 1:18 twist.

Rgds.

[Bullshop]

I said that because first of all you kneed to know where each shot goes so you can have a better chance of figuring out the problem, thus the spotter.
The 45/90 because for long range I see it as more than a trend that the 45/70 is being outclassed by the 45/90 with the same twist. There seems to be a stability issue there with the 45/70 that the increased velocity of the 45/90 is overcomming.
There seems to be a trade off with increasing the twist of the 45/70 so no real improvment there.
One area of improvment for the 45/70 may be in paper patching. It seems to have been proven that grooves on a boolit seem to oncrease drag causing greater drift. By going to a bore diameter PP boolit you have cut drag in two ways. You have reduced caliber to 44 staying with the same weight so have raise the BC and you have eliminated drag by eliminating the grooves in the boolit.
All else being equal velocity, weight, and degree of accuracy I would expect the PP to be more forgiving to the changing conditions and thus more consistant at long range.
The 45/70 with the 1/18" twist seems to do real good to about 800 yards with conventional grooved boolits but the 45/90 seems to do better beyond that range.
Nothing proven just my thoughts.
BIC/BS

[RMulhern]

Johnny

If I were you....I would change the alloy to 1-16 or at least 1-20! I don't think you would have the problem of 'nose slump' at your charge of 65 grs. Swiss 3F...but it may be possible! Your charge of 65 grains in my opinion is a little 'light'! Even though your accuracy is good at 300 yards....at 1000 yards velocity loss can tear your *** up badly!! Try 75 grs. Swiss 3F through a droptube and even though you will have to compress more....Swiss will perform OK with compression despite what you've read! Try another primer! I was using CCI BR-2 primers a while back and the vertical dispersion became so bad I went back to F210M and things got much better. I now use Federal LP 150M primers with a primer pocket wad of .008" thickness and it got even better on vertical. You stated that the wind was varying a great deal from around 11 o/clock to 5 o/clock...letting off and picking up quite quickly and that will have much to do with vertical because winds from the left side will have a tendency to make the bullet impact lower and toward 4 o/clock while winds from the right will move the bullet up toward the 10 o/clock area; Left LOWERS, RIGHT RAISES! Do not use a tight fitting front aperture that closes down around the bull tightly! This is a BAD NO NO because your eye cannot pick up aiming error if the front aperture is too small. Use a front aperture that will give at least 2/3 more light around the outside edge of the bull than the area occupied by the bullseye! Remember....you are shooting a very SLOW BULLET with LONG BARREL TIME in comparison with say a 7.62 projectile that will still be super-sonic at 1000 yds. so FOLLOW THROUGH on the sights and maintenance of cheek pressure upon the stock is most important! Look for the FIRE at muzzle flash and this will help you on FOLLOW THROUGH!! At moment of trigger break....your vision should be concentrated upon the front aperture to assure concentricity is withheld in the front aperture and also make certain that your head and cheek are at the same position upon the comb of the stock because if this is not checked....your vertical will vary!! Also....it will be a great aid to your shooting if you have a strap-on cheekpiece attached to the comb of the stock. If you do not have a comb like the Shiloh LRE which is more inline with the bore....it will be very difficult for you to maintain consistent cheek pressure upon the stock as well as make you strain your neck muscles to see through the rear aperture!!

[Johnny bravo]

Thanks again BS and FPMIII.

FPMIII, your advice makes sense. I have just cut and copied what you wrote about the wind so I can print it and stick it on my notes folder. One thing though; you have asked me to ponder on several variables. My concern centres on the powder charge to begin with. Presumably a heavier load will give more velocity and hence flatter trajectory. However, I find loading even 70gr into the 45-70 case a challenge. Would loading anything more(like 75gr) cause the case to rupture during firing due to the any bulge caused by the compression? With my present load, all my cases have been reloaded a dozen times or more and are still holding strong. BTW, will shooting 75gr of BP make my teeth rattle

I was using a cheek piece by the way; a DIY padding taped to the stock, which worked fine.

Keep the good advice coming. Lots of notes for my folder.

Rgds.

[John Boy]

JB, personally, I would increase the powder charge up to 70gr of Swiss 1.5. Also, I have experienced that the Pedersoli bores like harder bullets in the range of 1:14 to Lyman #2.

Anyway, a 1000yd Lyman 457132 Postell recipe of mine is 65gr of Swiss 1.5 (1135 fps) and 166 points (MOA) in a Pedersoli. My 100yd baseline setting is zero on the vernier, so adjust accordingly. The recipe is with Lyman #2 bullets - Bhn 15

As for the popicle front sight, you will IMHO have a better sight picture using a circle insert that allows just a tad of the white on the target to show

[twotrees]

For All of my BPCR rifles, it helps getting a larger charge of BP into the case IF you only size the part of the case that holds the boolit,No More.

Some folks get 75 gr in a 45-70 case I can't even with only "neck sizing."

Good luck and remember as a good friend told me, at a shoot I was doing poorly "The Wind is your Friend"

Keep at it you'll get there and the rewards will be worth it.

[August]

I'm not out to 1000 yards yet. I started at 100 and tried to get all the various load components standardized and sorted out. Wad, over-primer wad, powder, compression, lube, seating depth. Shooting on paper at "short" range got me standardized on pistol primers, over-primer wads, slight compression, and (most importantly) bore-rider design boolits.

Then, once I had a load that was grouping well at 100, I moved out to 200 yards. Things seemed to work about the same, but the aperture sizes on my sights made a definite difference in group sizes. I started to get familiar with subtle differences in sight picture that I cannot, to this day, put words to. There is just a "right" kind of "feeling" that comes over me when the sights are clear and lined up.

The, I moved out to three hundred yards. Now, shooting at steel, wind occasionally was an issue, but was easily compensated for at that distance once I had some experience.

Skipped from 300 to 500 and learned very quickly that the condition of the bore (fouling mainly) was the difference between hits and misses at that distance. Wind was an even bigger factor at 500 than it was at 300, but still manageable with careful attention to atmospheric waves. (never thought my old, inland sailing experience would come in handy on the rifle range, but it certainly has).

About to go out to 800, now that things are regularly in the 9 for 10 region of things.

Someday, I want to shoot 1000 yards. I'm looking forward to it. Hope I get there in the next year or two.

Our high power guys won't let people shoot with them until they've been checked out at 100, then 200, then 500, then 800. You can't just show up at their match and put lead downrange at 1000. I thought they were pretty elitist at first, but now realize they are trying to insure the success of every new comer that shows up at their doorstep. I think that's pretty cool and in the best spirit of the shooting sports!!!

[RMulhern]

Thanks again BS and FPMIII.

FPMIII, your advice makes sense. I have just cut and copied what you wrote about the wind so I can print it and stick it on my notes folder. One thing though; you have asked me to ponder on several variables. My concern centres on the powder charge to begin with. Presumably a heavier load will give more velocity and hence flatter trajectory. However, I find loading even 70gr into the 45-70 case a challenge. Would loading anything more(like 75gr) cause the case to rupture during firing due to the any bulge caused by the compression? With my present load, all my cases have been reloaded a dozen times or more and are still holding strong. BTW, will shooting 75gr of BP make my teeth rattle

I was using a cheek piece by the way; a DIY padding taped to the stock, which worked fine.

Keep the good advice coming. Lots of notes for my folder.

Rgds.

I shoot a 'modified' Postell that has the upper two drive band diameters at .4495" which lets me seat the bullet outward two full lube grooves and doing this....the powder doesn't have to be compressed very much! If you use WW brass....using a 30" droptube lets 75 grs. Swiss or Goex 3F into the case very nicely!

[BPCR Bill]

Johnny, I agree with BS on the spotter. And the spotter had better have it together. At 1000 yards, winds can get tricky anywhere from the firing line out to the target. A gusting wind up to 16mph will throw you off target in a big way, and you won't really be aware of it on the line. Your spotter is the one who watches conditions and gives you the go or a hold off. They are also watching wind indicators all the way out to the target. I'm lucky, I have a retired Marine scout sniper that spots for me at long range. As long as I listen to the Gunny, all I have to do is get the sight picture and squeeze 'em off. You can spot for yourself if you have a good scope that can pick up mirage, and a very good understanding of wind drift, but it's just more stuff on your plate on top of rifle management. I recommend two books:

"Reading the Wind and Coaching Techniques" by MSGT Jim Owens, USMC (Ret)

" Wind Drift and Deceleration of Cast Bullets at Black Powder Velocities" Paul A. Mathews

Informative reads to say the least. It wouldn't hurt after studying those to get to the range with a good scope and "Spot" a match for yourself. Don't shoot, just watch the winds and what it does to affect bullet path. Don't get discouraged, Mate!

Regards,
Bill

[13Echo]

Try posting your question on the Shiloh site. They aren't concerned about what rifle you may be shooting and several, very experienced long range shooters regularly post there.

Jerry Liles

[Bullshop]

In the slight increase in velocity I dont think the trajectory is really the big gain. The gain even if slight is spin. If at the current velocity the bullet being used is becomming unstable past 800 yards then the answer is more spin. You can get it by adding twist or velocity. Since twist is out you have to go for velocity.
Another possibility is to use a slightly shorter boolit. If your shooting the Lyman Postell try going to the 457125 which is just enough shorter that it may show a stability differance at the extended range. At least its something to try to narrow down the possibilities.
Still another way to gain stability through velocity it to use bore diameter boolits bore seated ahead of a case full of powder. That is a case using its entire capacity for powder with the exception of an over powder wad. That way you can easily get the 45/90 powder charge in a 45/70 case. Dont sell short a bore diameter boolit for accuracy, it would be folly. The Irish shooting team equalled the US team at Creedmoore or very nearly so using bore diameter boolits muzzle loaded. Many of the turn of the century target rifles were breach/muzzle loading rifles that loaded a charged case from the breach but the boolit was introduced from the muzzle. Worked then works now. Are ya confused yet?
BIC/BS

[Don McDowell]

Johnny don't fall into the 45-70 isn't enough for 1000 yd shooting. I shoot a 45-70 and it'll hold its own at that distance if you do your part.
I'm thinking the wind and mirage may have got the best of you . Also your front sight could be causing some problems. Might want to try some different inserts and see if you get a better sight picture. A good spotter is worth his/her weight in gold at that distance in the wind.
I'm of the mind that you may want to use a stiffer alloy to eleminate the possibility of nose slump messing things up. Its not uncommon for a bullet to preform real well out to 3,4 or 500 yds and then loose stability past that distance especially in the wind.
Were the bullet holes in the target round or oblong?
Lastly as Bill said, don't give it up, sounds to me like your first time out was pretty good all things considered.

[RMulhern]

Johnny don't fall into the 45-70 isn't enough for 1000 yd shooting. I shoot a 45-70 and it'll hold its own at that distance if you do your part.
I'm thinking the wind and mirage may have got the best of you . Also your front sight could be causing some problems. Might want to try some different inserts and see if you get a better sight picture. A good spotter is worth his/her weight in gold at that distance in the wind.
I'm of the mind that you may want to use a stiffer alloy to eleminate the possibility of nose slump messing things up. Its not uncommon for a bullet to preform real well out to 3,4 or 500 yds and then loose stability past that distance especially in the wind.
Were the bullet holes in the target round or oblong?
Lastly as Bill said, don't give it up, sounds to me like your first time out was pretty good all things considered.

Don

I'll second you on your first sentence! I've got a good friend on the way to Phoenix that shoots a .45/90 with 75 grains of Swiss 3F and the Good Doc is a good shooter; HARD HOLDER as I've watched him shoot here on my range. Well...the load he's shooting is no problem to get into a WW case in .45/70 caliber because I've done it...it's one of my favorite loads. I have not tried the bullet the Good Doc is shooting but he brought me some today on his way to Phoenix for me to try which I will do first chance about this coming Tuesday....IF everything is OK with Angie after we get away from the cardiologist office! Don't sell the .45/70 short!!

[Bullshop]

Don't sell the .45/70 short!!
Agreed! But as I said as well load it for long range, and check for boolit instability at the longer ranges. Least thats what I thought I said.
BIC/BS