Much is made of God giving his only begotten son to save the world's sinners. (Please forgive the possible inaccurate words but you get the gist) This is one thing (of many) that puzzles me greatly. Jesus was one part of the Holy Trinity. As part of that holy mystery he was the Son of God, but also God Himself. If that's true then the crucifixion of Jesus was no great sacrifice at all. Jesus knew what was coming. God knew the suffering of every crucified person ever. Jesus knew for certain that he would be resurrected, as did God. In that great scheme of things that was really no big deal for either God or Jesus. Or are we saying that God couldn't cope with Crucifixion? This is a genuine query and I'm not being flippant but there is a clear and obvious contradiction in sentiments here.
Wow
So Jesus being fully man, and fully God, did not have trepidation at the prospect of torture and crucifixion?????
Our Father, God in Heaven did not comprehend the ultimate sacrifice of his only begotten Son?????
The Bible make clear God's feelings about being a Father
The Bible clearly states Jesus' state of mind.
Break out a Bible, study it, and then post here.
Your post is disrespectful and insulting on every level, temporal and ultimate.
Last edited by jmort; 07-16-2019 at 03:10 PM.
Few Christians, even few educated ministers, actually understand the difference between the spiritual "Son of God" and Jesus' own description of himself as "the son of man". When the time came, the Son of God set aside his Godhood and took on flesh. Thus, Jesus was born, lived, worked and died as a man, as one of us, but without sin. So, yes, the Son of God certainly knew what his coming sacrifice would entail, a human pain that can't be described, but that wasn't the worst part.
Jesus didn't "save" us from mortal death, he died in the flesh and we will also face that. It was his short lived spiritual death while still on the cross that he has saved us from!
As a man, Jesus dreaded and sweat "as it were, great drops of blood" for the cross but also from the coming horror of total separation from all the good things of life, i.e., spiritual separation from God. THAT spiritual death was - and remains - a painful penalty worse than physical death! That separation is exactly what he was experiencing when he cried, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me!" When that awful "second death" (spiritual separation) was completed he said "It is finished!" even tho he still lived. Then, as spirit, he gave up his "ghost" and exited his body to wait for its resurrection.
Sure, in both of his natures Jesus knew - and clearly dreaded - what was coming but he did it anyway so no one else would need to. So, it was the son of man who hung on that cross AND it HURT. But even the agonizing pain of the beatings and the cross paled when he was briefly abandoned by God so don't ever minimise what that brutally tortured, very human man of flesh did for us.Jesus knew what was coming. God knew the suffering of every crucified person ever. Jesus knew for certain that he would be resurrected, as did God. In that great scheme of things that was really no big deal for either God or Jesus. Or are we saying that God couldn't cope with Crucifixion?
The Bible should be our standard, not opinions or special denominational precepts. To resolve Biblical questions we need to let scripture prove scripture. A lot of well meaning "contradictions" rise from incomplete Biblical knowledge and subsequent efforts from honest human SWAGs trying to find answers to what is unknown or misunderstood. That's why we have so many denominations full of good people!This is a genuine query and I'm not being flippant but there is a clear and obvious contradiction in sentiments here.
The Bible is our only faithful anchor, lose it and we're adrift in a dreadfully stormy sea of man's makings. So, where the Word is clear, and it usually is, we can be (MUST BE!) dogmatic on the critical points of Christianity but where the Word is unclear or the issue is small we all need to be more forgiving. Fact is, none of us knows it all (Sadly, not even me!) and that alone should make each of us a bit humble when opposing other folk's opinions without compelling scripture.
(Even your opinions. Well ... some of them. )
suicide is murder of one self, premeditated at that
Marriage is a 3 way covenant, man, woman + god. You can say what you like, get a court order saying your divorced. But the LORD still holds his copy of that covenant, and tends to not recognise man's right to break it.
When I got married it was first time for me, second time for my wife. When the Lord called me, after a bit he called me to task for being an adulterer. Having sex with a married woman. Eventually I got around to asking him just what was required for her ex to do for him to be considered the problem. Even the Jewish people had divorce, it was just a lot harder. When I told the Lord what her ex had done he stopped calling me an adulterer. Said by rights he should have been stoned. I agreed. But I know he does not take divorce lightly.
Suicide, that too raises all kinds of problems with family not to mention self.
I consider it mostly selfish. You no longer care what heck you put your family through as long as you can end the pain that you consider unbearable.
You think that was unbearable. ROFLMAO. You ain't seen nothin yet.
But IMO there is no comparing sins. Sin is bad, period. Don't do it.
If you can't commit 150% to a marriage, don't get married.
If you lost your farm/business, debt piled high. You did it, own it. Stand up and take responsibility for it.
Suicide because of terminal cancer or untreatable pain is IMO another case entirely. But I am not the Judge, the Lord God Almighty is.
I think there are actually two kinds of marriages. Sacramental Marriages and Secular Marriages. The latter is not an oath before God. It is just a contract between two people in accordance with the laws of the selected jurisdiction.
You seem to understand that there are two kinds of suicide as well.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Matthew Chapter 12
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
There is no answer to your first question. I have never seen a list of things that bother God arranged by priorities. On the human side, divorce while hard, produces less trauma on a family that suicide. I base that on 37 years as a pastor who has tried to minister to both of these issues on multiple occasions.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
My brother, you are the only other man I've known who sees that! And we can Biblically prove it to be so. Consider:
Jesus was suddenly abandoned and cried from the cross, "My God. my God, why have you forsaken me?" At that moment he - the son of man, not the Son of God - was deprived of all the good things of God that we seldom think of. And it was agony. But, God returned and Jesus could say, "It is finished." THEN he gave up the ghost (i.e., the anamating soul) so his body would die. He didn't physically die so we would not physically die because we do and will die that first death. Instead, the man Jesus was briefly abandoned by God for us so we need never experience the pain of awful separation from everything that is good.
Now no one is going to hell from not getting that straight but knowing it rightly focuses on the Lord's horrified (hellish?) cry of momentary separation from God.
Far too few believers grasp the significance of Jesus' constant reference to himself being the son of man, meaning for some 35 years he set aside his God-ship and became one of us and one with us. Wow.
Care to take a crack at this then?
Matthew Chapter 12
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
1. You must not know many people, because that is standard evangelical theology 101 and has been for centuries.
2. Re: My God, why have your forsaken me....I would refer you to the Psalm 22. In this case the first line is exactly the same in Hebrew and Aramaic. This Psalm begins with a great lament, but ends with glorifying God for his presence and provision. It was common practice for the Jew to quote the first line of a psalm that would incorporate the entire psalm. We do the same thing many time....i.e. A stitch in time...An apple a day....etc. etc. I would posit there is more evidence that this is what Jesus did, than the "separation from God" theological construct.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
Do you hold to the idea that Jesus was separated from God on the cross or not? I'm not sure from your answer above.
I have heard that teaching for a very long time. However, I doubt it very seriously based on the character of God and the fact I see no reason or biblical support for him to do so.
Additionally, if you look at Psalm 22, the speaker, after enumerates his troubles, and cries for help, he concludes:
"For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help."
If Jesus were quoting this Psalm, he undoubtedly knew the whole thing.
What Jesus said on the cross is a Biblical fact. What he meant by what he said, is a theological interpretation. Theological interpretations by their very nature are human thoughts and not Biblical dictum. Way to many folks don't seem to understand the difference between human interpretation and Biblical facts.
I was not there in Jerusalem the day Jesus died. I am unable to read his mind and his intent, so I don't really have a fixed understanding. I do think that the cultural history of the Jews at the time, has at least as much relevance to understanding as human theology many centuries later. Bottom line for me, is I don't really know why Jesus said what he said, so I am not going to tell folks that I do.
My faith in Jesus does not depend or rely on such theological constructs. I am content to accept Jesus as my Savior, follow Jesus in all things and brag on Jesus at every opportunity. I will leave the man made theology to the truly wise ones and thereby avoid all the conflict and discord that has torn the "body of Christ/church" into fragments over the past 2,000 years.
I have wasted way to many years of my life on theology. It has been of little or no help to my personal faith or my ministry to others. What I/we need is "Grace" and not a correct theology and the conflict that comes with that. I am content to think and let think. We need love and not theological correction.
Addendum: There is no doubt that Jesus knew the entirety of 22nd. Psalm by memory, as did every other Jewish male and the vast majority of the women. It is part of the "Hallel" (praise God), the central core of the Jewish hymns/psalms that were committed to memory by every Jewish boy as a requirement to become a "Son of the Temple" (Bar Mitzva). The girls also learned it to become "A daughter of the Temple" (Bat Mitzva). Therefore, everybody there in Jerusalem knew the 22nd. Psalm by heart, except the Romans.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 05-05-2021 at 12:15 PM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
From Char-Gar: "I have wasted way to many years of my life on theology. It has been of little or no help to my personal faith or my ministry to others. What I/we need is "Grace" and not a correct theology and the conflict that comes with that. I am content to think and let think. We need love and not theological correction."
Amen, and thank you Sir.
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