.357 Elmer Keith Load

[brianintheup]

One of Elmer Keith's loads for a .357 was 158 gr. bullet behind 13.5 gr. of 2400 @ 1325 FPS (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=21). This was loaded in 38 special brass. My sierra reloading manual 5th edition lists max load for a .357 as 15 gr. @ 1250 FPS. Does it really make that much of a difference if you use 38 brass compared to .357 brass?

Brian

[JudgeBAC]

I would think that bullet in a .38 special case would encroach upon the powder space which would run pressures up. Additionally, the newer 2400 is hotter than the old formulation and you must use current data.

[NHlever]

I think that might have been a Skeeter Skelton load, and he used the Lyman 358156 boolit crimped in the rear crimping groove. That gives the case nearly the powder capacity of the . 357 case though the cases are not as thick, or as strong generally. I have used that load quite a bit, and like it in my Security Six revolvers. I wouldn't put more 2400 behind any 158 grain boolit in the .38 Special case!

[brianintheup]

I am aware of the difference in burn rate of the older 2400 and the newer 2400. The Sierra loading manual has 10.3 gr of 2400 being max in a 38 special they are using a S&W K-38 as their test gun. It states a velocity of 950 FPS.

Would the different burn rate account for the difference in velocity. The manual states 14 gr of 2400 produces 1200 FPS. The data from handloads states that 13.5 gr. of 2400 @ 1325 FPS. There are two variables case and powder burn rate. Which one causes the difference or is it a combination of both?

Brian

[felix]

Combination of everything, including chronos. ... felix

[FN in MT]

Most of the .38/.357 loads Elmer Keith wrote about generally had HIS #358429 slug listed not the #358156GC slug.

In "Sixguns" he states; "For use in the .38 special cartridge to be fired only in guns like the .45 frame Colt or heavy S&W, we load a charge of 13.5 grains of #2400 with the 160 gr Keith Lyman hollowpoint, or 173 grain solid bullet and get killing results that are not to be obtained with any other combination in this cartridge".

This was written SIXTY or even SEVENTY years back, with OLD 2400.

Keith was known to load right to the ragged edge back then. Years later when the H P White Labs crono'd and pressure tested some of his loads the results were borderline SCARY.Very high pressures in a few of them.

FN in MT

[76 WARLOCK]

How old does 2400 have to be to be classified as old? I have some that is 30 years old. would Alliant be able to tell by lot number?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

If it is 30 years old, it is in the class of...OLD

[9.3X62AL]

I'm uncertain of the re-formulation timeline, it seems like aproximately 10 years ago, or roughly at the time Alliant took over from Hercules. Just not sure. Does someone have better info?

[brianintheup]

Most of the .38/.357 loads Elmer Keith wrote about generally had HIS #358429 slug listed not the #358156GC slug.

In "Sixguns" he states; "For use in the .38 special cartridge to be fired only in guns like the .45 frame Colt or heavy S&W, we load a charge of 13.5 grains of #2400 with the 160 gr Keith Lyman hollowpoint, or 173 grain solid bullet and get killing results that are not to be obtained with any other combination in this cartridge".

This was written SIXTY or even SEVENTY years back, with OLD 2400.

Keith was known to load right to the ragged edge back then. Years later when the H P White Labs crono'd and pressure tested some of his loads the results were borderline SCARY.Very high pressures in a few of them.

FN in MT

What combination would you recommend. I am shooting a Colt Trooper MKIII. I have 158 gr, 170 gr, 180 gr hard cast bullets for my .357. Of coarse I will be using new 2400.

Brian

[FN in MT]

Brian,

WHAT do you want to do?? If you want to shoot .357 mag velocity loads out of a .38 Spcl case I have zero input.

If you have .357 brass and wish to use 2400 I'd get a current loading manual and start there. I load very few .357 mag loads. I feel that if I need .357 mag power, I may as well carry one of my .41's or a .44 spcl.

I DO load a lot of .38 spcl though a lot of it with the #358429 168 gr slug as well as the 160 gr #358446 slug. I use UNIQUE , Universal Clays, depends what I want to do.

Theres tons of .38 and .357 data out there. Start a few grains lower and work UP.

FN in MT

[EDK]

Elmer Keith designed his boolits when there was no 357 magnum and he used the N frame Smiths in 38/44...and pushed the envelope pretty d--- hard.

Today, there is plenty of 357 brass...and unfortunately too many lawyers looking for deep pockets---like your homeowners insurance for starters! I wouldn't load anything very hot in 38 brass just in case someone uses one of your reloads in a *** 38 special. and gets injured. There's been a bunch of threads on numerous forums on this topic. I don't like the situation, but ignoring reality and potential liability law suits could be very expensive.

358429 has a long nose compared to other designs since it was designed for 38 casings in the afore mentioned N frames. It may be too long in magnum brass for some guns, but that's pretty common knowledge.

Unfortunately the new RANCH DOG TLC 359 190 is too long to work in my unaltered MARLIN 357 Cowboy....I'd been eagerly waiting for it for months. So now I have to either alter the gun to use it or look for something else. The TLC 432 265 has been a great performer in my 44 Cowboy and I had high hopes.

So welcome to the real world. Start low and don't get too wild. Ultra high performance isn't worth the trouble...and the wear and tear on your guns!

ED'S LAW: IF YOU NEED MAXIMUM LOADS, YOU NEED A BIGGER CALIBER!

[brianintheup]

Ed's Law is a pretty good law. At this point in time there are two other handguns that I would like to get and then I feel as though I have my bases covered. I want a .44 mag and a .460 rowland.

My consideration of the Keith loads is for hiking in black bear country. Thus, the magnum loads. I need a bigger caliber I know but I have to work with what I have now.

Brin

[EDK]

Look around for a LYMAN 358432 mould. They're discontinued and gaining some popularity, but still available on eBay and forum classifieds. (They need a group buy on this one!) Do a search here on it.

It is a 160 grain wadcutter with a large nose portion out of the casing. I loaded them with the same over all length setting as 358665 AND they fed in my 357 MARLIN Cowboy rifle in magnum casings. Do some serious load development with 158 grain loads as a starting point; I just got the mould and haven't done a lot yet.

Ask one of the law enforcement types who Jim Cirrillo is....the New York PD stakeout legend. He made a statement to the politically incorrect effect that "a 160 grain full wadcutter in the eye socket was an instant fight stopper!" and he was using a 38 Special model 10.

If you like 44s, take a look at Blammer's group buy on the full wadcutter 44 at 240 grains+ from Old West Bullet Moulds. I got the four cavity and love it...gotta love them sharp edged 44 caliber holes in the targets too! I'm using them in my VAQUEROS and a S&W 629.

Your 357 will work...a 44 would be better, but going to a more efficient boolit shape will upgrade any caliber. Cast them a little hard for penetration and do your homework on your loads until you're satisfied. "Anything you shoot close up will be deafened, powder-burned and have some big holes in it."

[Marine Sgt 2111]

One of Elmer Keith's loads for a .357 was 158 gr. bullet behind 13.5 gr. of 2400 @ 1325 FPS (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=21). This was loaded in 38 special brass. My sierra reloading manual 5th edition lists max load for a .357 as 15 gr. @ 1250 FPS. Does it really make that much of a difference if you use 38 brass compared to .357 brass?

Brian

I have three old (mid 1950's thru early 1960's) and they classified .38 spl's into two classes, one for "heavy frames" and the other at regular .38 levels. In the heavy frame catagory they list a max load of 12.5gr of 2400 with a Thompson semi wadcutter. For .357mag loads the levels of 2400 go from 15.0gr to 15.5grs with the same gas checked semi wadcutter.

[brianintheup]

Has anyone used Buffalo Bore ammo? 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.) It looks pretty impressive to me. That's 400 fps more than my reload manual shows as max. It almost doubles the ft. lbs of energy.

How do they get these results and claim that their ammunition is safe to shoot in all steel frame revolvers?

Brian

[Old Ironsights]

Has anyone used Buffalo Bore ammo? 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.) It looks pretty impressive to me. That's 400 fps more than my reload manual shows as max. It almost doubles the ft. lbs of energy.

How do they get these results and claim that their ammunition is safe to shoot in all steel frame revolvers?

Brian

Yes, and Yes.

In a RIFLE that load actually hits about 1800fps. I haven't chrony'd it out of the pistol, but it shoots just fine out of my Ruger SP101... though it has a pretty good bark.

[AKtinman]

Look around for a LYMAN 358432 mould. They're discontinued and gaining some popularity, but still available on eBay and forum classifieds. (They need a group buy on this one!) Do a search here on it.

It is a 160 grain wadcutter with a large nose portion out of the casing.

This is a favorite of mine. Be aware that it came in both 148 and 160 gr versions if you are looking for one.

There was a thread a few months back concerning a GB on this one, but apparently not enough interest to proceed.

About 35 years ago when my eyes were better but I wasn't as smart as I am today (!) I used a 160gr 358432 over a healthy dose of 2400 in the 38/44 Outdoorsman. Worked great on the coyotes I tried it out on. Probably more of a Skeeter-influenced load than an Elmer load.

[mainiac]

What combination would you recommend. I am shooting a Colt Trooper MKIII. I have 158 gr, 170 gr, 180 gr hard cast bullets for my .357. Of coarse I will be using new 2400.

Brian

If you want my opinion, stay away from max loads with this gun.I had a colt tropper mark IV, I think it was called,back in the eighties,and it was the most accurate .357 i ever owned!!!! After a not very many diet of max loads i shot this gun loose. Never over loaded it, but after 1000 or so rounds it became very loose,and started spitting lead,with a loose cylinder. Knowning what i know now, i never would have loaded it over about 1000 f.p.s. Have never owned a more accurate .357 since,so please be careful.

[tactikel]

I have used the 168 gr swc over 13.5 gr of 2400 in my S&W 28-2. It is VERY stout. Do not use this this load in a .38 spl !!