Just some fooling around. A sizer die being born.

[Buckshot]

Nice work Rick!

Have ya thought about makin Saeco sizers? (hint, hint) I know a guy that would be interested in tryin a custom size Saeco sizer or two!

...........May sound funny but I've never seen a Saeco size die. I don't see why not though.

................Buckshot

[Magnum Mike]

How 'bout i send ya one to copy?

I am in need currently of a .501" and that is something that Saeco doesnt offer at all.

[Frank46]

Buckshot, the december january issue of machinists workshop has two articles that may interest you. One is a procedure for making reloading dies for the 11mm mauser cartridge and the other one is for making an H&I die for the lyman lubrisizer. One thing though. Some of my old lyman (20-25 years old) have four holes for the lube and on the newer ones they have only two. Any thoughts on this. Ho Ho Ho Frank

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, the december january issue of machinists workshop has two articles that may interest you. One is a procedure for making reloading dies for the 11mm mauser cartridge and the other one is for making an H&I die for the lyman lubrisizer. One thing though. Some of my old lyman (20-25 years old) have four holes for the lube and on the newer ones they have only two. Any thoughts on this. Ho Ho Ho Frank

Frank, I used to get Machinists Workshop but dropped it. All I get now is the Home Shop Machinist. If you would be agreeable I would gladly pay you your time and trouble plus mailing charges to copy and forward those 2 articles to me. It'd be interesting to see what is being done differently then what I'm doing to make Lyman and RCBS dies.

I think Lyman went from two sets of 4 holes 180* apart to 4 sets of 2 holes 90* apart for better distribution of the newer heat type lubes.

Make a 43 Mauser die when Lee sells them for $27 a set? I really really do understand the concept of making a widgit yourself for $99 rather then buying a mass produced factory widgit for $29.95, but a size die isn't something I'd want to do. I did make a size die for my 11.15x42R Comblain and the .577 Snider, but those were both simple cases. The Comblain needed a neck and shoulder but the angles were simple. I wouldn't attempt anything more complicated without a reamer, or at the minimum a "D" bit type cutter.

................Buckshot

[Frank46]

Buckshot, no problem with the copies as I have a copy machine here in the house. PM me with your snail mail address and if nothing goes wrong will send it out this week. Ho Ho Ho
thanks for the info on the H&I dies. The author in that article drilled four holes but they were not the same all the way around. He alternated them, you'll see when you get the articles. No money need change hands. My Pleasure Frank

[454PB]

I've been making mine for about 25 years, and I can tell you that they don't need to be hardened. All of mine are made of mild steel. I have some that have sized thousands of bullets without any change in diameter. I also quit using the O-ring grooves, I found that they are unnecessary.

Here is a couple of pictures of a sizing die and nose punch I recently made.

[drinks]

I am a real amachur, I have a 7x12 Chink, after 30 years with an Atlas 10x24 made in 1935 and before that, a 6x12 Sears, aka Atlas for 10 years.
My mill is a vertical slide I made for the 7x12, for little stuff and an x-y vise on my 3 1/2" column drill press.
I make a lot of little things, mostly size dies for a Lee sizer, Lee just does not make a bunch of sizes I want and $25 each for Lee to make them offends my frugal soul.
My source of stock is the 7/8x14 3 point hitch parts that do not have a flange forged on, I just use my 7/8x14 die to make threads the full length of the piece, then just cut 1" pieces off, get 5 per piece.
Use the dowel and plumber's cloth plus finishing with wet or dry paper after using my fractional, letter and number bit set to get as close as possible

[KYRick]

I'm trying to make some Lee type sizer dies and was wondering it you'all taper the hole or just bore it straight?
Rick

[454PB]

I bring it to desired size straight, then put a light taper on the entry point to avoid shaving.

[Buckshot]

I'm trying to make some Lee type sizer dies and was wondering it you'all taper the hole or just bore it straight?
Rick

I don't know what diameter you're trying to make, but #5, 6 & 7 taper pin reamers would cover a bunch of diameters. They're a bit more expensive to buy new then regular chucking reamers. You'll find them on E-Bay every now and then. Sometimes bunches of'em together. I've got most of'em up to #10 which is pretty big 8).

................Buckshot

[KYRick]

Thanks Guys, I tried one (8mm) in a lathe by just drilling with a smaller bit and then boring to .325 but the boring didn't leave it smooth enough and it wouldn't seat a gas check. It just sheared off lead and the gas check. After this trial, I measured a Lee sizer and discovered it was about .013 larger at the opening and tapered to the "sizing Diameter". Im gonna try boring a taper in one just to see if it will work. I'm a 50 year old 2nd semester machining student at our local technical college.
Rick

[slughammer]

You can bore the taper in at 4 deg or even less, probably down to 2 deg. Boring is great for the taper, but trying to bore a small ID like .325 in 2" deep will really bring the deflection of the tool into place. I drill to closest size and then lap it in. I start with 220grit paper on a drill rod and then procede to 400 once I get closer.

[454PB]

What slughammer said. The finer the finish inside the die, the smoother the boolits. Since it is rather hard to measure the I.D. of the die, I first make the center punch to .001" under the desired diameter. Once that will fit, working slowly, I drive a slug through the die. It's the same principle as slugging a revolver throat.

On a few of mine I screwed up and over shot the desired diameter. That's OK, they are then candidates for the next size up!

Remember, you can always make em' bigger....pretty tough to make em' smaller.

[jonkzak]

KYRick. Stay in there and keep up the good work.
I use 'D Bits' to form tapers. You can make these guys from O1 drill rod in any form needed slab off half and harden sharpen and use. Once you get the process down you can make on in about 30 min from cutoff to cut.

Yahoo groups MWHints has a PDF that describes the process in great detail. I also have this if interested...

JJ

[Buckshot]

...............I use a couple processes for making the dies. Actually turning the outside is the same. I have a set of cutting tools ground and dedicated for making various things. For the sizer die bodies I setup a 2" dial indicator to read against the carridge, but I use the crossfeed dial (direct reading) for infeeds.

One tool takes the .750" rod down to .720" (top flange OD) in one pass which is only a .015" DOC so no big. Next tool is a block that holds 2 tools. A cutter for the 'O' ring groove and the lower relief groove (whcih serves what purpose?) I dial in an indicated .080" DOC for that.

The next tool in has a narrow radiused nose which is run in and then power feeds from the 'O' ring groove the length of the body to produce a .703" body OD. Final forming tool is a bit ground with the 30* angle on it for the base's sealing surface.

All this takes about 3 minutes to form the exterior of the die. The time eater is boring the hole through the die. The die body is 1.6" long and that's a bunch to drill. I like TiN coated parabolics as they eject chips the best. The problem is heat (as below). The die body gets HOT. I don't run soluable coolant as I don't want any rust issues.


I can make 21 die bodies from a 36" piece of 3/4" O-1 drill rod. By the time you've made and parted off 3 or 4 of them the stock coming out of the 5C collet is hot to begin with. You're peeling off .050" for 1.6", then cutting a 30* angle fairly deep, and then drilling a hole all the way through.


A Tin coated parabolic starting in a centerdrilled hole. These will take a pretty aggressive feed and stay sharp a long time, but the downside is generated heat. This ISN"T a size die body 8)

Where the difference in machining comes in is bringing the die hole to size. Those with small ID's like those .267" dies are drilled with fractional, letter, or metric drills to as close to the target as possible. All the blanks I make beforehand have a 1/4" hole pre-drilled. Bearing in mind that all drills will drill and oversized somewhat lobed hole. Ideally a reamer that is within a few thou is available. I have a fractional set by 64ths and a letter set. I'm working on accumulating those most usefull 'Tweeners" either metric or decimal. E-Bay is my friend!

Once the small ones are as close as practical I use brass laps with diamond paste. The hole is too long to be really practicable with even a solid carbide boring bar. The problem here is checking the ID. You can't just slip a pin gage in the hole. You have to take the die out and flush it with solvent (there goes the expensive diamond paste , wipe it clean and THEN check it. And etc, and etc. I HAVE learned that before flushing to push the accumilated diamond paste out of the lube holes to be put back on the lap if necessary.

The dies with larger holes are again drilled and/or reamed as close as possible. If a few thousandths still need to be removed, you can use a boring bar. Actually I use HSS drill or reamer blanks. Again E-Bay is my source. These for some reason are more expensive then drill bits, even though they are mere solid rods. I don't get it, but there it is. You can find them pretty cheap on E-Bay, usually in packs of 12 for the smaller (to 1/4") sizes. People don't seem to pay much attention to them unless they're in sets like drill bits.

These are ground to be used as boring bars. Still have to be aware of flex and chatter so fine cuts are the norm. A problem is the lube holes. As I said I drill my die blanks with a 1/4" bit. After I have several made I have a fixture that gets clamped in a compound vice on the drill press to drill the lube holes. I drill the lube holes straight across the body of the die.

With these holes in the bore of the die, as the body is rotating the cutting edge of the boring tool has to cross them. If the edge of the cutting tool is wide enough to easily span the hole you have to apply a lot of feed (pressure) on them to get them to cut. If you grind them narrower then the holes they have a tendancy to drop in. They then can cut a ramp out or worse, break. I have decided on a bit of a compromise. I grind them to be just a tad wider then the lube holes, feed fast and take a light cut. You can buy solid carbide boring bars of 3/16" OD taking tiny TNMG carbid inserts (for like $100) and these would be great, but the small nose of the insert would drop into the lube holes.

Once the hole is bored to within a thousandth or so, it's time to polish them out. One of the pin gage sets I have is .250" to .625" by .001" and -.0002". This is the most usefull gun size sets. It's time to polish when one .001"under will 'just' slide in, but the target size won't. If the target size pin gage will enter, the bore will be off spec to finish polish. Ask me how I know this

The tapered leade is cut before polishing. The cleaned die is put back in the collet and a taper pin reamer is used to cut a very shallow angle. After that an assembly 'hand reamer' is used to cut a more abrupt but shorter angle to creat a funnel right at the mouth. The hand taper reamer was bought sometime in the dim past for a couple bucks. The taper pin reamers were bought on (there it is again) E-Bay. These are numbered from 0 being the smallest on up. For most all common gun sizes #5, 6, & 7 will serve 99%.

As jonkzac said, you can make your own in the form of 'D' reamers. I've made a few for other purposes and like a bit of relief on them. After they've been turned and milled in half (lengthwise) I file a few thousandths off the underside and trailing edge, leaving about a 1/16" strip untouched on the cutting edge. Then they're hardened. I don't draw it but leave it glass hard (and brittle). Then the cutting edge is stoned on top and a bit of relief stoned in on that narrow strip.

So to make the body blanks (the outside form) takes maybe 3 minutes. Drilling the holes takes another 5-8 minutes. Everything after that takes 10X longer, and a bit too much or energetic polishing will have you outside your +.0005" tolerance (or whatever it is) soon. Everything up to the finish is fun!

...................Buckshot

[KYRick]

.......... they're lapped with expandable brass laps from DME and diamond paste.
..........BTW, I know where you can get 1" O-1 for $19/36". Up to .750" neither is too expensive. But from there O-1 takes a $4 jump to 7/8 and a $5 jump to 1".
I'm using .750" W-1 which is $8/36"
...............Buckshot

Hey Buckshot, thanks for the "play by play" (very good work), and would you mind telling me what/where DME is and where I could get 0-1 and W-1 at these prices?

[floodgate]

Rick;

Good description on making the sizer dies! No wonder they cost so much through the "regular" sources.

" A cutter for the 'O' ring groove and the lower relief groove (whcih serves what purpose?)"

If you're referring to the rounded groove just below the O-ring slot, that was for the set-screws used in the No. 45 and the old No. 1 lube-sizers. The No. 1's use a thumbscrew with knurled head and a rounded point that doesn't tear up the groove like the Allen setscrews used in the no.45. The broader, reduced OD over the feed holes is, of course, th help the lube flow around and into the die, and to reduce friction sliding them in and out.

I'm tempted to dig out the 20-30 older stepped dies I have and add tapers with my taper reamer set. Have you had any luck with the expanding reamer sets? I use them a lot, but mostly in wood, for fitting dowels or pegs in loom and spinning wheel repair work.

Doug / floodgate

[shooter575]

Some time back I went to the local rock pollishing shop to get some diamond bort paste.They were out.Gal there sold me a bag of silicon carbide 600 grit for 20 somthing bucks or so.I got darn near a quart jar worth of the stuff.I just mix a bit with oil for my laping compound.Anyway it is cheep enough that I do not mind wasteing some.

[Buckshot]

.................KYRick, "Hey Buckshot, thanks for the "play by play" (very good work), and would you mind telling me what/where DME is and where I could get 0-1 and W-1 at these prices?"

The brass laps (barrel hones) are from MSC. The steel is from Enco (div of MSC) www.useenco.com . Go to the HSM forum and do a search for Enco 'Free shipping code'. Add that code at checkout on the Enco site (usually orders over $50) and it's shipped free! I bought a granite surface plate they had to ship via truck and it (185 lbs) was shipped free!

Current Enco monthly catalog shows:

W-1, .5=3.89, .625=5.39, .75=8.19, .875=11.59, 1"=13.49
O-1, .5=4.19, .625=6.49, .75=9.09, .875=13.69, 1"=18.99

..............Floodgate, "" A cutter for the 'O' ring groove and the lower relief groove (whcih serves what purpose?)" If you're referring to the rounded groove just below the O-ring slot, that was for the set-screws used in the No. 45 and the old No. 1 lube-sizers. "

Well good! I can leave it off. They look odd without it though 8)

"I'm tempted to dig out the 20-30 older stepped dies I have and add tapers with my taper reamer set. "

If the dies are hardened I don't think you'd be doing your reamers any good. Heck, you have a lathe! Put those old dies on E-Bay as "VINTAGE old Lyman lube-sizer dies found in back of old gunshop" Oughta get $30-$40 each for'em and then just make yourself new ones!


"Have you had any luck with the expanding reamer sets?"

My gunsmith recommended me to steer a wide berth around adjustable reamers for critical stuff. I have zero experience with them. I'd bet if you can get them set they'd be just as good as a solid reamer if you were sneaking up on a hole size you were going to otherwise finish. I'd think so anyway. Don't see why not, as I think he was talking about a hole finished to size with a reamer.

...............Shooter575, the diamond paste doesn't break down as you use it. Could be good that way or bad? Carborundum paste breaks down finer and finer. Usually 3 gram tubes of diamond past is like $16 a tube IIRC. Whatever, there was a guy in Auburn, Ca on E-Bay selling 12, 3 gm tubes of diamond paste, your choice of grits for a "Buy it Now" of $32. Grits ran from 120 to some crazy fine stuff like 100K.

I got 2x 120, 2x220, 2x320, 2x600, 2x800 and 2x1200. I should have gotten 3 each starting at 120 and finsihing at 600. To be honest a little use with the 120 will eat up the brass lap, and 220 cuts steel pretty fast. I usually polish a die bore out on a split wood dowel and 400 wet or dry paper with paint thinner to finish. Makes'em shine like a mirror.

The thing is, I have to send stuff out better then the big companies. Firstly for me personally and secondly as people expect that, right? You know making something for yourself is different? Hey it's good enough, and for who is using it. You know whense it came and what went into it. I know what I mean as before I started doing this stuff I had no concept what so ever of what was involved.

Heck you take the knurling on a tool handle or a die or something for granted. No big! It's just there like the bowl of cornflakes at breakfast every morning. Yet let me turn a nice sharp clean even knurl on something and I can sit and stare at it for half an hour! Not that I'm simply entertained or anything

..................Buckshot

[floodgate]

Rick:

" A cutter for the 'O' ring groove and the lower relief groove (which serves what purpose?).......Well good! I can leave it off. They look odd without it though."

No, please leave it in; there are a lot of the older lube-sizers around, and some of us like them better than the 450/4500 series. If you clamp onto one without the groove in one of the older lube-sizers, you'll bugger the die up and it would be hard to remove.

Doug