There just isn't any answer, other than the one I have given you, for someone who thinks the Bible teaches reincarnation or that the early Church believed such a thing. The verses you use to support this idea are taken out of context, ignore the way Jews communicated and dismiss all the sections of Scripture that clearly teach that you have one life here on earth and then you face judgement. I can only imagine what else you might believe the Bible teaches.
The only beneficial answer for you, assuming you really want to understand what the Bible actually teaches, is to get some training in biblical interpretation and doctrine. If you are happy popping up here with posts that clearly go against the Bible's teaching (for shock value?), then you cannot be helped or reasoned with.
Well, this discussion went sideways a bit.
I did not state that the Bible teaches reincarnation.
As you know, you won't find that word in the Bible but there are verses sprinkled in the Bible that suggest Karma/Reincarnation, as I provided to you in the past.
You read it one way, I read it another.
The early church did not believe in such a thing?
With all of your reading and studying, I guess you haven't read about the Gnostics?
Perhaps you also need to do some reading.
Seems I've read that before.The only beneficial answer for you, assuming you really want to understand what the Bible actually teaches, is to get some training in biblical interpretation and doctrine.
Shock value? <sigh>If you are happy popping up here with posts that clearly go against the Bible's teaching (for shock value?), then you cannot be helped or reasoned with.
No, Ickisrulz. Geez.
Provocative issues that seem like a good topic for discussion, yes.
I think that some here view opposing views as an attack on their belief system.
That is not my intent.
Some issues make people think and make a reply and then become the benefit of everyone.
I enjoy reading opposing views. It makes me think and sometimes I do some research.
"....then you cannot be helped or reasoned with...."
another <sigh>.
Ickisrulz, then save yourself some frustration and don't reply to my posts.
The pleasures of sin must be fleeting if that sin is to be forgiven. If you have good memories of sins you committed you need to seek God's help. Understand if no one was harmed then there was no sin, if someone was harmed then the sin must be repented and amends made for that sin to be forgiven. Repentance does not need to be an emotional exercise, it can be the intellectual realization of the harm done so that proper amends can be made. How can you have some pretty good memories of hurting someone, that would be evil. Like I said, if no one was harmed then there was no sin. If the harm was just to yourself, that might be a gray zone. We can help how we feel about things. The best way is to seek the light of truth, to understand why something is wrong with how we feel and teach yourself to feel properly about it. Sometimes it will come to you as an epiphany and hit you like a brick.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Other than RCC doctrine and, okay, a few hyper-legalistic backcountry evangelical groups, no matter how much human sense it might make there is nothing in scripture that agrees with that, at least not as you mean it.
Thing is, if we start adding to or subtracting from scripture as we please we may as well toss the Bible and just sit around and decide for ourselves what Godly "truths" makes the most sense to us and doing that makes no sense at all to me.
Absolutely, you've got that exactly right! The heart IS what God measures so adding man's ideas of the extras God should require for everything to make sense to us is exactly the type of error the Pharasees of Jesus' day made and that was some BAD ju-ju!"God knows your true heart"
Wrong, there are no carvats involved; either salvation is a free gift or it's not. Truth is, we must be saved by the unearned, blood bought free gift of salvation that Jesus offers or there is no gospel for us at all. And, thank God, there IS a fabulous gospel!Despite the free gift of salvation there are still crevats involved.
As a closing thought, everyone should know there is no spiritual halfway house, or purgatory, where the not-totally-forgiven dead must suffer a bit to work off unrepented sins ... or pay a priest to buy their way out early. That un-Biblical idea adds another personal effort to obtain God's "free gift of salvation" ... and both doctrines are blasphemy.
So, no, there are no caveats to salvation involved. Either Jesus' blood bought "free gift of salvation" is free or it's not, there is no division of labors effectively saying, "Jesus will do his part if I do mine". Earned (pagan) salvations are hopefully achieved by following a well stated set of rules and works but it surely isn't Christianity.
When a Christian dies he will immediately awake in the eternal loving presence of God. There will be no fearful cowering and trembling naked before a throne waiting to hear if we made it or not, the mere fact that we stand in the presence of Jesus is proof we have indeed made it! (See John 3:16-18)
Many are invited, but few are chosen. This free gift has no caveats involved, you either have a pure heart or not. God is not going to tell you why you were not chosen, no list of unforgiven sins. You are either good enough or you are not. The real question is how good is good enough. If many are invited, but few are chosen then I suspect you have to be very very good. What do you think maybe a dozen of the 50,000 members of this forum will make the cut?
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Timmy, your lips are overflowing again; I've never suggested or even thought that. So, once again you're putting your words and thoughts in my mouth and that isn't sanitary. Stop it.
I don't know any members of this forum and I never make judgements about such things as spiritual "cuts" so you'll have to handle things like that for yourself because I'll have no part in it.
After reading this thread and others in "Deep Theological Discussion" I am always led to Luke ch 18 vs 8 and ponder the question Jesus ask.
Well, since you did not state what it says, here is what that verse says, for everyone that is not a Chapter/verse type:
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
So what are you trying to say here?
I do not see where if refers to the topic discussed.
What did I miss?
No, Gnostic ideas were outside/opposed to the doctrine delivered by the Apostles. Are you claiming that First Century Christians were all Gnostic in their beliefs? While a Christian's beliefs do not have to be 100% correct, Gnostic teachings not only contradict the Gospel message, they are damaging. This is why the Apostles (the leaders of the First Century churches) fought against it.
You can believe whatever you want. But I will once again suggest you get some actual training in biblical studies. When I read your posts, I don't get the idea you see the Bible as being your authority for faith and conduct. So maybe a reasonable understating of the Scriptures is not your goal.
Last edited by Ickisrulz; 07-22-2020 at 06:39 PM.
Well, that is how I also understand what the free gift is but got hung up on us being accountable for our sins.
It made sense to me when Tim replied about no unrepented sin is forgiven.
That made sense to me, but now.....
Free means free, that also makes sense.
I guess it is a moot point for me since I do believe we are accountable for all of our sins.
It's just another thing in the Bible that isn't clear to me because it conjurs up questions such as I've made here in this thread.
Well, that obviously is your opinion, but there are other belief systems.As a closing thought, everyone should know there is no spiritual halfway house, or purgatory, where the not-totally-forgiven dead must suffer a bit to work off unrepented sins ... or pay a priest to buy their way out early. That un-Biblical idea adds another personal effort to obtain God's "free gift of salvation" ... and both doctrines are blasphemy.
My view/belief is that we are accountable (Karma) for our bad actions.
This plays out in the afterlife where our good/bad Karma is evaluated (judged?) by God.
Maybe we move on into the Spiritual Realms or maybe we have to reincarnate to give us the opportunity to squelch any material desires we had unfulfilled before death (desire for that new Corvette, being President, Pastor, etc. that keep us somewhat anchored to this Material World) and also to negate the unrepented sin that we had.
Perhaps, but Jesus might say to you "Ah-h-h-h, you're not quite there. You need to go back for a few more incarnations.When a Christian dies he will immediately awake in the eternal loving presence of God. There will be no fearful cowering and trembling naked before a throne waiting to hear if we made it or not, the mere fact that we stand in the presence of Jesus is proof we have indeed made it! (See John 3:16-18)
Hopefully not.
Last edited by Rizzo; 07-22-2020 at 06:47 PM.
Wow, you're a tough one Ickisrulz. LOL!!Ickisrulz;4947595]No, Gnostic ideas were outside/opposed to the doctrine delivered by the Apostles. Are you claiming that First Century Christians were all Gnostic in their beliefs?
I say that with no disrespect.
No, I am not saying the first century Christians were ALL Gnostics.
How about this one....
The Gnostics were a group of Early Christians who believed in reincarnation.
Hmmm....?
Well, thank you......and you can believe whatever you want to.You can believe whatever you want. But I will once again suggest you get some actual training in biblical studies.
Still beating that dead horse though, eh?
Hebrews 9:27.
exile
"There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776
"The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)
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