Heavy Bullets in a .30-30?

[Throwback]

I am just recently loading cast for the .30-30 and I have had good results with lower velocity (1,400 to 1,600 fps) loads as well as a hunting velocity load using Lyman's 311041. This is a good bullet for hunting, however in .30-40 and .30-06 I have moved to the 214 grain 311284. Does anyone have experience with heavier than normal bullets in the .30-30?

For my .30 cal bullets I use 9 to 1 WW to Linotype with backstop material thrown in. This runs 14-15 BHN. My SAECO tester does not correlate exactly. My hunting loads clock right at 2,000 fps. I get no appreciable leading at the lower velocities and cleanup is not at all difficult with the hunting loads, even when shooting more than a handful of rounds. Accuracy at this speed is not bad with the best loads though it is easier to achieve with the smaller case of the .30-30 & .30-40 than with the ‘06.

I shot my last deer with the 311284 214 grains (out of a .30-06). The first shot hit just behind his leg and exited the far side leaving a 2-inch exit hole. The second shot took him between the shoulders as he ran towards me. Neither bullet was recovered. Internal damage indicated good expansion.

I am experimenting with .375 Winchester cases (An article in the Lyman cast bullet manual suggested this) and the 311284. These cases are much stronger than .30-30 cases and it is a relatively simple matter to anneal them and resize them. The 214 grain bullet must be single loaded in the model 94 but it is an interesting prospect for a first load. It seems to shoot well.

I may not end up using it much in my 94 but it looks like a good match for the Cimarron Low Wall. I also have my eye on a really neat stalking rifle in the 7.62X51R, the .30-30’s metric equivalent.

My first load was 22 grains of H335, which averaged 1,500 fps in the model 94. I miked the fired cases and expansion indicates that this load is perfectly sane. I am hopeful that it will be possible to hit 1,800 fps either with this powder or something slower burning. At 1,800 to 2,000 fps instrumental this alloy seems to work well.

I have also loaded the Hornady 180 grain round nose in the .375 cases with 29 grains of H4895 - no idea what the velocity is yet. It is cold temps here so no more chronying until spring.

[Junior1942]

The RCBS 30-180-F RTL in my alloy weighs 195 grs. See http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/heart.htm

[Throwback]

Thanks Junior - good article - that is a nice analog for the .303 Savage

[Larry Gibson]

Throwback

I've done some load development with the 311284 and 311299 in the 30-30 for single loading in a M94. Unfortuneately I won't be where my data is untill after the 24th. Jog my memory then if you still need it.

Larry Gibson

[JohnH]

I am experimenting with .375 Winchester cases (An article in the Lyman cast bullet manual suggested this) and the 311284. These cases are much stronger than .30-30 cases and it is a relatively simple matter to anneal them and resize them. The 214 grain bullet must be single loaded in the model 94 but it is an interesting prospect for a first load. It seems to shoot well.

The Lyman cast bullet manual is quite a bit dated at this point in time. At it's inception, the 375 was made with slighty heavier brass than that of the 30-30, but Winchester has since gone to drawing all thier 30-30 brass on the same punches as the 375. This was done at the time they began doing once a year runs of 375 brass in a effort to economize on tooling costs and maintenance.

People usually suggest doing this to get a few extra FPS from the 30-30, (Your post doesn't leave me with the impression that is your intention) but it is important to consider that strengthening the brass does little if any to improve the strength of the action. The strength gain of the "94 Big Bore (the vehicle of the 307/356 and 375 Winchester) was an actual change of the reciever itself. The rear area where the bolt block is was widened and thickened and was likely made from higher strength materials than the standard '94.

As the bolt block in the '94 rises at a angle in the reciever, there is a tendancy for the bolt to move rearward and slightly open the lever as pressures rise beyond that which is acceptable for the '94. As well, the brass will show a corrosponding streach.

Of interest to note is that the 303 Savage is essentially a 30WCF, the later can be loaded with data for the former, and vs. vs. The standard loading for the 303 Savage was a 190 grain bullet at 1950 FPS. Three authors of high reputation you may want to research in regard to heavy bullets and loads in 30-30 are H.V. Stent, Sam Fadala. and R.H. Vandenburg Jr.

[Throwback]

Thanks for the knowledge. Your's sent me down to the basement to weigh my brass JohnH. My Winchester .30-30 brass is of recent vintage but everything else I have is quite a bit older. Weights are as follows:
- Win .375 - 152.1gr
- FC - 142.9gr
- Win .30-30 - 140.9gr
- R-P - 132.2gr
- Rem UMC - 131.9

I am sure you are right about current issue brass being more or less the same. The .375 cases in question date to about 1988 and are noticeably heavier in the base than the others.

You perceive rightly that I am not looking for extra fps. I like the cartridge fine the way it is. I am fairly conservative with my reloading and I try to stay realistic. Within reason I think the heavier cases will improve my safety margins. Never the less my first loads with the 311284 used .30-30 brass and worked fine.

I know and like what I get with the 214 grain bullet in other calibers and am simply curious to see what is feasable in the .30-30 case. I like Junior's take on the subject because the RCBS bullet will function in the 94.

You are right-on regarding the 94 action. More to the point mine is a 1950 example in very nice shape. I don't want to beat the old girl too much.

[w30wcf]

Throwback,
Back in the early 1980's, Frank Marshall wrote a column for the "Fouling Shot" (Cast Bullet Assoc. publication) called "Frankly Speaking ". One of his columns was entitled "Heavy Bullets Enhance the .30-30" and his favorite heavy bullet in the .30-30 was Lyman's 311284.

He said that he would file a .2" flat on the nose and then seat to crimp over the front driving band. His powder of choice was W760 or 4350 in 33 gr. doses for 1,850 f.p.s. in his "pre 1940 shiney '94 carbine".

I have tried his recipe and they cycle just fine through my '94 and shoot well.

Here's a bit of Franks story telling....
“On a crisp November morning, I enjoy a leisurely browse up through happy hollow . My companion is likely to be my shiny old pre 1940 Mod. 94 .30-30 Carbine and my old mills belt full of prime cast loads. I have known for about 50 winters that that a proper cast load from a .30-30 carbine will put more deer down in the woodsy east than most of the over rated .30 caliber hotshots. As you know, today’s armament in most eastern hunting camps is high powered, heavy at both ends and hot in the middle, under your eye balls, and overburdened with glass of wondrous power; most useful for moon gazing or bird watching in the off season.”

“In our camp, young aspirants will occasionally offer me the loan of their spare scoped fussil, rather than turn me loose in the wild woods only “half ready” with cast loads, in a .30-30 at that which shows them I never read gun books. Naturally I encourage this controversy . It always makes the puddin’ sweeter when my compadres come in popped and plodin down the long hollow while I’m patiently waiting for assistance along the old jeep trail with three hunter loads of venison cooling out and no meat spoiled by a clean shot from a heavy .30-30 cast bullet.”.................

w30wcf

[northmn]

I have shot three deer with a 30-30 using a Lee bullet mold that throws a 188 grain bullet and use a flat point nose punch for sizing. It has been quite impressive. I loaded it to about 1900 fps and it got one deer at 150 paces. Expansion was very good. I used Birdshot tempered and then put the bases in water and annealed the noses with a propane torch. You don not need to do this for many bullets. Non annealed bullets shoot to the same point.

Northmn

[Bret4207]

Throwback,
Back in the early 1980's, Frank Marshall wrote a column for the "Fouling Shot" (Cast Bullet Assoc. publication) called "Frankly Speaking ". One of his columns was entitled "Heavy Bullets Enhance the .30-30" and his favorite heavy bullet in the .30-30 was Lyman's 311284.

He said that he would file a .2" flat on the nose and then seat to crimp over the front driving band. His powder of choice was W760 or 4350 in 33 gr. doses for 1,850 f.p.s. in his "pre 1940 shiney '94 carbine".

I have tried his recipe and they cycle just fine through my '94 and shoot well.

Here's a bit of Franks story telling....
“On a crisp November morning, I enjoy a leisurely browse up through happy hollow . My companion is likely to be my shiny old pre 1940 Mod. 94 .30-30 Carbine and my old mills belt full of prime cast loads. I have known for about 50 winters that that a proper cast load from a .30-30 carbine will put more deer down in the woodsy east than most of the over rated .30 caliber hotshots. As you know, today’s armament in most eastern hunting camps is high powered, heavy at both ends and hot in the middle, under your eye balls, and overburdened with glass of wondrous power; most useful for moon gazing or bird watching in the off season.”

“In our camp, young aspirants will occasionally offer me the loan of their spare scoped fussil, rather than turn me loose in the wild woods only “half ready” with cast loads, in a .30-30 at that which shows them I never read gun books. Naturally I encourage this controversy . It always makes the puddin’ sweeter when my compadres come in popped and plodin down the long hollow while I’m patiently waiting for assistance along the old jeep trail with three hunter loads of venison cooling out and no meat spoiled by a clean shot from a heavy .30-30 cast bullet.”.................

w30wcf

Good news for fans of Uncle Frank Marshall. The guys at CBA are working on a CD of his collected articles! I'm hoping it happens soon. (It was my suggestion, so I'll be doubly happy!)

[stillhunter]

I would suggest the Lyman 311291. In the Winny '94 the accuracy is excellent. We've been using them for years. Most deer in PA are taken at under 40yds. So a high five on the overpowered ordinance. It doesn't matter what you carry, if you can't shoot it. I use a Marlin myself, need the low glass for the old eyes.

[Junior1942]

You guys help me bug Ranch Dog about adding a lube groove to his most excellent TLC311-165-RF mold. It'd give us a circa 180 gr bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

Throwback

I've done some load development with the 311284 and 311299 in the 30-30 for single loading in a M94. Unfortuneately I won't be where my data is untill after the 24th. Jog my memory then if you still need it.

Larry Gibson

My accuracy load with a 215 gr 311284 was 25 gr of H4895 w/1/2 gr dacron fillet at 1675 fps.

Accuacy load with the 204 gr 311299 was 27 gr H4895 with 1/2 gr dacron filler at 1710 fps.

Note; these loads were for single loading directly into the chamber. The 311299 bullet had to be seated deep so it could eject if not fired.

I found the 311291 over 28 gr H4895 at 140 fps did everything the two heavier bullets did and was more accurate to boot.

Larry Gibson

[45&30-30]

northmn,

Have you or would you start a thread on your nose punch and showing some of your bullets off. Or include it here if that would be appropriate to the thread.

Junior, I like the idea of the lube groove on the Ranch Dog.

[w30wcf]

Here's a pic of the 311284
ala Frank Marshall and loaded for long range shooting.


The 180 RCBS that Junior likes (and I do as well) is also great heavy bullet for the .30-30.

w30wcf

[Throwback]

Great stuff guys - thanks. I will post my results on a new thread when I have the chance to shoot. According to Mr. Groundhog I still have precisely too many days until spring.

[shdwlkr]

dang you junior if ranch dog does that I will have to buy another mold from him. Ha Ha

[shotman]

There is a fast way to make your flat points. Take a 1/8 piece of steel and fix so you can get a torch under it . Heat to cherry red and wipe loaded boolit across till you get what you want for a flat point

[Pepe Ray]

"There is a fast way to make your flat points. Take a 1/8 piece of steel and fix so you can get a torch under it . Heat to cherry red and wipe loaded boolit across till you get what you want for a flat point "

Does anyone feel like his chain's just been pulled?

Throback; Have you tried any hollow points in your 30's? It's been said by others that HP'ing tends to improve accuracy, (dealing w/a properly fit boolet, of course)

It was 0*F here at 10Am. The ground hogs are gonna catch 7734 this summer.
Pepe Ray

[Throwback]

That sounds reasonable Pepe Ray. It places more of the weight aft. I haven't tried Hollowpointing. In my pistols I would need to make my bullets slightly softer to work. I can see some advantage there, even though I am happy with the .41 and .44 on game with SWC bullets. I have no clue how pb HPs work on game at rifle speeds but I worry I would lose penetration and/or suffer bullet blow-up. What's your experience?

[Throwback]

I should add that I know bullet blow-up is a good thing on varmints - if that is where your thought process was headed. I am a tad slow sometimes! I have never used cast in a rifle in classic varmint hunting. I have always used something fast and jacketed. I like the idea of the Barnes Varmint Grenade.