50 or 54 slow twist barrel?

[OverMax]

Just my thoughts on the subject.
If wanting to reduce recoil my advice is to restock the barrels with Renegade stocks then mount a slip-on recoil pad. Only because the Renegade stock seems to have a shorter than usual feel to many shooters the Pad will indeed increase the stocks overall lenght which enhances sight-plane and no doubt felt reduction in recoil. (a welcomed two~fer.)

Distance from deer with OE requires the shooter to know his rifles limits and his as well.
What many black-powder hunters fail to recognize. "What they tote is antiquated. Not a Rail gun."

If requiring some others experiences in what he/she needs to do afield to garner a successful hunt. Ask a successful bow hunter and follow his advice how he enhances his chances across the board in his taking deer with a antiquated tool.

As far as bullets and ball on deer size game. Most older shooters toting side hammer rifles usually go full cycle. Shooting ball then bullets and seeing little difference they return to patched ball and stay put. Those who are believes "never~ever patch ball" In time such shooters will likely turn to inline.
As far as my experiences.
I hunt my deer with a Hawken 45 cal and patched ball. Although this rifle has a factory {cheater} Rd Ball Only scroll. Such barrels do tighten groupings but not all that much when comparing a 1-48 to a 1-66 and both projectiles use.
When it comes to larger game (bear) My 54 cal Renegade w/1-48 and a heavy charge gets the job done probably because the rifle is a dedicated shooter of Maxi Ball only.
Keep in mind a larger bore doesn't always increase you're luck.
Although your hunting/practical knowledge and sharp aim will indeed bring about a successful hunt time after time.

[725]

Way back here was a question if a .50 RB is OK for deer. Oh my, yes. Much of this thread is which is better, Chevy or Ford, stuff. They all work. Your preference is the issue. For me, I have had success with both conical & RB. I really like the .54 RB best. Hoyt has made me a few .54 RB'er's and even a .60 RB'er. Wonderful what that man can do. One thing, though, newly cut barrels can frequently have sharp rifling and thus cut patches. Regular shooting or some lapping takes care of that. Get whatever strikes your fancy and have fun with it.

[indian joe]

I too have yet to have a TC 1:48 twist shoot a PRB well. Oddly the best shooter is my TC scout pistol, and I believe it may have a 1:20" twist

I settled on conical in the renegade, I'll probably end up selling the new Englander eventually, and my new flintlock renegade I'm seriously considering sending to Bob Hoyt to freshen the rifling AKA deepen. I have no idea why, but it seems to me the shallow rifling is far more a detriment to a PRB than the twist is. If the 1:48 twist limits me to 60 grains of powder, great. I just want it to shoot good at any speed for starters.

As for caliber, 54 caliber is the way to go with round ball. Nothing wrong with 50, but if you have the choice, 54 offers more.

Your choice and you will get a lot of encouragement from blokes here - but - the benefits of deep rifling for shooting patched round ball is utter baloney. Another well entrenched blackpowder myth. Plenty of barrel makers fell for it too.

[indian joe]

I vote .54 over .50 every day no matter what it is for target or hunting.

Got me a 6.5 pound CVA 54 that I use 100grains of FF in - might maybe change yr mind aboot that 54 fr targets idea.
Man its fun on the line tho ---ffft - ffft --pop ----KABOOM!! - what the heck wazat????? gits em every time ...................

[charlie b]

I have tried everything with the hawken. I am throwing in the towel on round ball and moving on.

I know it might not be good for hunting but did you try less powder? I have a Lyman GPH with fast twist and it will shoot PRB, but, only with light loads. Anything above 40gn of powder and the groups become paper plate size (it is a 1/32 twist). I'd start with 40gn and see if the groups get any better, then up a bit more until they blow apart.

If that fails then either a new barrel or slugs, like a REAL, Maxi, or Lyman Plains bullets.

[megasupermagnum]

Your choice and you will get a lot of encouragement from blokes here - but - the benefits of deep rifling for shooting patched round ball is utter baloney. Another well entrenched blackpowder myth. Plenty of barrel makers fell for it too.

Then why don't Thompson Center barrels shoot a patched round ball well? By well, I mean as good or better than conicals. I realize my example of 3 guns is small, but all three are marginal with a PRB. I tried smaller with thick patches, larger with thin patches, all kinds of wadding, FFg and FFFg powder from 30 to 120 grains. After an entire summer of working with a single TC Renegade, I got it to where I could count on 5"-6" at 100 yards. Many, many loads were far worse. From what I read, a good smoothbore can shoot 3" at 50 yards! I can count on any of my smooth bore shotgun cartridge guns to shoot 4" at 50 yards with a round ball.

If it were the twist rate, wouldn't you expect lower charges to shoot better? In actual practice, I could tell very little difference in accuracy with any powder charge. 30-40 grains was often the LEAST accurate. I tried pure lead, 40/1 alloy, 20/1 alloy, and COWW.

The reality is the thompson centers all shoot a conical lights out if it fits well.

To reiterate, lower charges of powder often shoot worse in TC 1:48 twist barrels. Guys that get these guns to shoot PRB almost universally use a super tight fitting combo to grip the shallow rifling. So what does that leave? Rifling depth. What else could it be?

[brewer12345]

I don't know what it is and I don't care at this point. I count myself lucky that my 54 grey hawk shoots PRB very well at hunting charges and am happy with that. Will get another barrel for the Hawken since the one that came with it shoots maxi balls extremely well.

[LAGS]

I had a .54 about 30 years ago.
I didn't see any advantage over the .50 except for the weight of the ball.
But since then I have learned more about BP rifles and may be willing to give the .54 another go.
For right now I jumped up to .61 and so far I am pleased with it..
But you guys have got me interested in trying a .54 again.

[Edward]

Then why don't Thompson Center barrels shoot a patched round ball well? By well, I mean as good or better than conicals. I realize my example of 3 guns is small, but all three are marginal with a PRB. I tried smaller with thick patches, larger with thin patches, all kinds of wadding, FFg and FFFg powder from 30 to 120 grains. After an entire summer of working with a single TC Renegade, I got it to where I could count on 5"-6" at 100 yards. Many, many loads were far worse. From what I read, a good smoothbore can shoot 3" at 50 yards! I can count on any of my smooth bore shotgun cartridge guns to shoot 4" at 50 yards with a round ball.

If it were the twist rate, wouldn't you expect lower charges to shoot better? In actual practice, I could tell very little difference in accuracy with any powder charge. 30-40 grains was often the LEAST accurate. I tried pure lead, 40/1 alloy, 20/1 alloy, and COWW.

The reality is the thompson centers all shoot a conical lights out if it fits well.

To reiterate, lower charges of powder often shoot worse in TC 1:48 twist barrels. Guys that get these guns to shoot PRB almost universally use a super tight fitting combo to grip the shallow rifling. So what does that leave? Rifling depth. What else could it be?

You"d be wrong ,try shooting soft lead as it fills those grooves unlike the hard stuff your trying to make work . The super tight patched balls is for cleaning fouling without wiping and also moves lead /patch to fill groove easier . At least in my #8 Bob Hoyt barrels , 40-120 grains 2F/3 F 45 to 610 balls using appropriate thickness patch/lubes/Ed

[megasupermagnum]

You"d be wrong ,try shooting soft lead as it fills those grooves unlike the hard stuff your trying to make work . The super tight patched balls is for cleaning fouling without wiping and also moves lead /patch to fill groove easier . At least in my #8 Bob Hoyt barrels , 40-120 grains 2F/3 F 45 to 610 balls using appropriate thickness patch/lubes/Ed

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

[indian joe]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

If the bore is good and its a 48 twist it will shoot a patched ball accurately at moderate velocities - something else is the problem
If I lived within 300miles of you I would take the challenge up and prove it - alas theres a big blue patch of water + hundreds of miles of mud and snow - no can do!


my favourite flintlock got me this offhand trophy last year.... 44cal ....48 twist .... shallow rifling (a cheap Belgian barrel).... prb and a ticking patch is a slick easy fit ....moose milk lube ....55grains FFFg.....................BUT .....load this n with 70 grains of powder and it would be lucky to hold the outside of the target off a rest.

I am a fan of CVA barrels and their point of difference was shallower rifling - NOTHING comes close to those old CVA tubes if you take in versatility of loading - the GM barrels shoot as good or better once you find the sweet spot but the sweet spot for a 50 CVA starts at 40 grain and goes all the way to 100. They were (are) SO easy to load for .

Pure lead - nothing else for round ball - I dont know whats in stick on wheel weights but the old style hammer on ones are too hard for round ball - shotgun shot is too hard - plumbers flashing is ok.

Buy one box of Hornady swaged round ball .530, shoot a ticking patch and 60 grains of powder and a wet moose milk patch .

You got 5 to 6 inch group at 100 yards ?????? --- centre it and thats 95 plus on international targets - I presume we talkin about regulation iron sights?? - 4inch is possible with a real good gun - if you can get that with a compromise twist barrel take it and go hunting - yeah theres a swarm of blokes can shoot 2inch ten shot groups with their Flinter offhand at 100 yards - but they all seem to be MIA any time I'm lookin for em.

[megasupermagnum]

The sights were aperture rear, first a Williams, then a Lyman 57. Front was a globe sight with small circle insert. It took many, many days, but I found in my Renegade that a pillow ticking patch lubed with Crisco (spit didn't work well), and 80 grains FFg powder would reliably group 5-6" at 100 yards on a dead calm day. That isn't good enough for a 100 yard shot at deer. It would be 75 yards tops. Not bad, but every conical I ever tried that wasn't a rattle fit in the bore would shoot under 4". The load I'm going to be using next week is a 440 grain conical with 90 grains FFg, no wad. felt wads shoot worse. That load was a reliable 3" group at 100 yards. I did not get but a handful of range trips to play with conicals in this gun. Many guys get maxiballs or similar to shoot even better with a scope.

[rfd]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

what edward said regarding using pure lead balls.

a t/c will shoot as accurate as any good muzzy if you feed it what it wants. however, as hundreds of years have indicated, a properly lubed and patched pure lead balls prefer a slow twist tube. my 43" .54 rice barrel, with shallow squared grooves, has a 1:66 twist that does the job if i'm up to the task. if it was 1:48 i doubt it would work well if at all with a patched pure lead ball. 1:48 is a compromise twist at best that's a jack of all trades and master of none. conicals need a really fast twist, as does the lee REAL bullet. yes, the twist of a muzzy will predicate its best load and usage, among a few muzzy parameters.

as a side note, there are bonafide TRAD muzzys and bonafide wannabe's. this muzzleloader forum blends the modern and the old. there is no way that the two designs can compromise feeding, loading and shooting. it's apples and oranges. trying to make a modern design work as an 18th century design is simply problematic. you want to load and shoot a patched ball accurately? you know what firearm design and parameters you will require. perhaps this forum should be split 'tween trad and modern - that'd be a service to more than a few folks entering the world of muzzy's.

[bob208]

when I worked with hoyt we cut the rifling deeper so they would take a patch. a 1-48 twist will shoot. I have a 1841 Mississippi we lined down to .54. 1-48. it sat around for awhile then one day I tried round balls .526 with .020 patch 60 dr. 3f. it shoots great won many matches with it. any body thinks this load will not drop a deer? better think again.

let us also remember the original Hawkins were cut with a 1-48 twist. as well a lot of others the thing was back then they did not have smokeless powder guns to compere with.

[brewer12345]

Decided on the 50 and ordered it this morning. Now if the weather would just go back to "Fall" instead of the arctic October we have had I will be able to get out and shoot it.

[Good Cheer]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

In the mid 70's my big brother set about making his .54 Renegade shoot accurately with max'd charges of FFg.
Kept the heavy powder charge and juggled the remaining variables.
And he arrived at a combination that was super accurate in his.
He did use a tight ticking patch,

THE GOOD STUFF

neatsfoot oil for lube and a paper under the patched ball to prevent burn through.
He stuck with that load and picked heads off of small game.

[LAGS]

Good thing he was able to do head shots on small game.
With a .54 if you tried a body shot , the head would be all you have left.

[Good Cheer]

Our eyes were better then. We called it head hunting.

[Edward]

The hard stuff I'm trying to make work!? I've been shooting stick on wheel weights 90% of the time, and I'm not aware of a source of more pure lead short of buying certified alloy.

I've asked over and over, how do I make a TC shoot a round ball accurately. Any of them, I have three. A .520" round ball with pillow ticking (very loose fit that I can start by hand) isn't it, the 520" round ball with canvas patch (tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with pillow ticking (very tight fit) isn't it. A .535" round ball with twill patch (thin patch, snug fit combo) isn't it. I also ran the gauntlet with my .530" mold. I've tried them all with felt wads underneath too.

So what is it? It's not a junk barrel, they all shoot a conical very well.

Never said junk barrel ,said BHN /Brenell hardness /number ! If you don"t own a tester (your right) your only guessing! On this site folks sell (soft lead) I buy and (TEST) ,never saw the need for store bought alloy as right here it"s available . Lee sells a very inexpensive one I"ved used for yrs ,not perfect but gives a benchmark to count on . So 90 percent of the time your using the wrong lead ,try doing it with soft as it works for every one else /Ed

[wapiti22]

I have a .50 Green Mountain barrel in my TC Hawken. It's very accurate with both round balls and conicals out to 100 ads. (the longest range I can shoot at). I'd love to find a 54 Green Mountain barrel.