case cleaning as lead control

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I've done a fair bit of reading here on lead dust, and I have concluded that one of the biggest hazards comes from tumblers due to the fact that priming compounds are made from Lead Styphnate.

So I'm thinking of switching to a liquid-based cleaning method. One of the things I have not seen is discussion of using phosphate soaps for binding the lead. Way back when I had youngsters and an old house the county health folks gave us a "lead cleaning kit" which contained a phosphate soap they said would help bind the lead dust around windows.

Is there any truth to that? Is it worth getting TSP to use to clean cases? Does the phosphoric acid work just as well?

[Conditor22]

I agree with you.
I believe that Dry vibrating and de-priming are the 2 stages of reloading that are the most hazardous to your health. I also switched to wet tumbling a long time ago. I have been considering getting my brass wet first the depriming to cut down on airborn lead from the primmers.

[tazman]

I find this topic interesting and will follow it. I don't know enough about this aspect to have an opinion.

[Dusty Bannister]

Just to add to the information:
"Modern cartridges use lead styphnate or a similar lead based compound as a priming compound. These primer are non corrosive, but do create lead dust (be it very small amounts) when a cartridge is fired. Diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) is a priming compound that is said to be lead free and when used in ammunition that does not include lead bullets is said to be Green or lead free ammunition.
what is cartridge primer compound? | Yahoo Answers
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111007161246AAUea7A"

Perhaps the primers are just part of the process in producing lead contamination?

[gwpercle]

How do you safely dispose of the lead contaminated water....you don't want to pour in down the drain or on the ground. The lead would contaminate the drinking water...right ?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Perhaps the primers are just part of the process in producing lead contamination?

Not sure what you mean by "just part of"?

Are you questioning why worry about a tiny bit of lead styphnated priming compound when we're shooting lead bullets?

It's a fair question - Provided you've loaded carefully to avoid gas blow-by, and you're not shooting steel targets, I think the health hazard is primarily from the priming compound residues. You can swallow a pure lead bullet and it will likely pass through your digestive system without causing any harm. The metallic lead pill is not in a form that will easily assimilate into your system. Powdered lead is different. Lead in dust form can be inhaled, or ingested. It has a much greater surface area which makes it more easily assimilated, plus, if inhaled, it doesn't readily pass through your system (you don't poop it out).

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The lead would contaminate the drinking water...right ?

Possible, but not likely. Under the right circumstances lead can migrate in the groundwater, but it is not often encountered. Most often the lead is not in a dissolvable form, or it doesn't remain in a dissolvable form as it stays in the ground. Of course if you dump it on the ground you'll now have lead in the soil. So maybe don't dump it in the vegetable garden or the kids sandbox.

Down the drain? Maybe. It would likely dilute out, unless you live in a town full of reloaders.

[MUSTANG]

How do you safely dispose of the lead contaminated water....you don't want to pour in down the drain or on the ground. The lead would contaminate the drinking water...right ?

Pshaw.

If one puts into drain and into septic tank - It will settle to bottom of the Septic Tank. If septic is pumped and sludge used for fertilizer or fill; the amount of accumulated lead would be next to nil on a parts per billion or parts per trillion perspective or parts per quadrillion even basis.

If one puts into drain and into community sewage system - It will drain and drain and drain until it reaches sewage ponds (except most mico-micro-micro particles will settle into pipeline sludge along the route) and at the sewage ponds it will settle into the bottom. If pond is pumped or sludge is "Mined" to be used for fertilizer or fill; the amount of accumulated lead would be next to nil on a parts per billion or parts per trillion perspective or parts per quadrillion, or even quintillion basis.

Now; If one is in the Lead Smelting/Production business dealing in thousands and hundreds of thousands of Tons per year; you have a different volume and issue. Good news is this does not happen in the US because DOE RUN is Dead!


An old adage in Contamination Remediation is: The Solution to Pollution is Dilution.

[Dusty Bannister]

Not sure what you mean by "just part of"?

Are you questioning why worry about a tiny bit of lead styphnated priming compound when we're shooting lead bullets?

It's a fair question - Provided you've loaded carefully to avoid gas blow-by, and you're not shooting steel targets, I think the health hazard is primarily from the priming compound residues. You can swallow a pure lead bullet and it will likely pass through your digestive system without causing any harm. The metallic lead pill is not in a form that will easily assimilate into your system. Powdered lead is different. Lead in dust form can be inhaled, or ingested. It has a much greater surface area which makes it more easily assimilated, plus, if inhaled, it doesn't readily pass through your system (you don't poop it out).

While there is lead dust in the air generated by the primer at the time the round is discharged, you probably encounter more lead dust during casting and handling of scrap lead. As I said this is one part of how lead dust is encountered. I did not say it was so small as to be of no concern. There are probably several ways to get lead into the system just as there is some lead eliminated from the body along with normal waste. I do not know if you have looked at many of the previous threads on lead contamination and how it can be removed from the body or not. That was not what I was addressing.

[mdi]

Personally I think this is "Chicken Little" thinking. I have been reloading/shooting for over 35 years, and lived in LA for 65 years (smog). For many years I used indoor shooting ranges, both pre- and post- EPA ventilation regulations. I know of not one reloader/shooter/caster in those 35 years that suffered any ill effects from "lead poisoning". My employer mandated an annual physical exam including blood tests for heavy metals and even among the 8,000 employees no excessive lead was reported. One or two welders were reported to have other "heavy metals" in their blood. I believe, in theory, that lead is present in some lead components, but one would really have to try to become "poisoned" buy any products of reloading/shooting, like doing deep breathing exercises with their face over a tumbler, or chewing on a freshly cast bullet while casting.

Many times someone will hear or read a health warning and blow the message out of proportion and parrot what they read as gospel (some government agency "said so").

I know my opinion may not be the most popular, but I base my life on logic and facts, and while lead poisoning may have occurred to kids eating lead paint, I would have to see real life facts (not "my brother in law had a friend at work whose uncle got cancer from reloading"). I cast, loaded, cleaned brass, decapped tens of thousands of spent primers, shot many thousands of rounds in a so-so ventilated indoor range, and my annual blood tests were normal, even living and working in downtown LA. The EPA enforces regulations on what may happen in extreme conditions (BTDT), but every day use is fine...

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

While there is lead dust in the air generated by the primer at the time the round is discharged, you probably encounter more lead dust during casting and handling of scrap lead. As I said this is one part of how lead dust is encountered. I did not say it was so small as to be of no concern. There are probably several ways to get lead into the system just as there is some lead eliminated from the body along with normal waste. I do not know if you have looked at many of the previous threads on lead contamination and how it can be removed from the body or not. That was not what I was addressing.

OK. Sometimes when you read the written word it doesn't come across the same as if it were spoken. Yes. I did a lot of reading of those threads. One of the things I took away from it was that dry tumbling brass was one of the bigger pathways for getting lead into your body. So I thought tackling that pathway would give a better cost/benefit yield. Especially since it seems people get good results by cleaning with lemon juice/citric acid and such. So I thought "why not add some TSP" to the mix?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

, but I base my life on logic and facts,.

I do too. And when I read threads on Castboolits regarding lead poisoning I see that most people suffer no ill effects, but there are a few who have experienced high lead levels.

I suspect it is like smoking. No one knows of anyone who smoked one, single cigarette then keeled over. We all know someone who smoked a pack-a-day and lived to their 90s. Yet the dangers of smoking are real. It's just that some people will suffer the effects more readily than others.

I base my life on facts too, but I also apply cost-benefit analysis to my decision making. The cost to switch from dry tumbling to wet-washing is extremely low. And to add a little TSP isn't much either. So even if the hazard is low, it's not a big deal to switch the process.

[tazman]

I worked in a heat treatment facility that used molten lead as the heating medium. Think of a large rectangular tub about 40 inches long, 16 inches wide and 6 inches deep filled with red hot lead and you have a basic picture of what we were dealing with. There were four to eight of these in use, 24 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. Approximately 1200lbs of lead in each of those posts at temperatures around 1500 degrees F. Anywhere from 3 to 8 men were working in the area at any moment, depending on how much production was needed.
We had blowers and fans running constantly but dust and fumes still got away from the system all the time. On occasion, when the wind was in the wrong direction, the area would fill with smoke from burning quench oil to the place you could not see to work or breathe the stuff. We were tested yearly for blood lead level content.
We had insurance people in there testing the conditions nearly every year, sometimes for days at a time. They always approved the air control systems in place.
We did NOT wear breathing protection. We had a list of rules, that if you followed them, you would not get an overabundance of lead in your system.
During the 40 years I worked there, we only had one man get in trouble for testing high on lead content. He deliberately ignored and broke every safety rule concerning lead handling we had. It took him about a year, but when the tests came back too high, they took him out of the department and after he completed treatment to reduce the lead in his system, they fired him. By that time, they figured out what he had been doing.
I was the longest serving worker in the department at the time I retired. I never tested above normal(for the area) lead content in my system.
Keeping lead out of your system is simple and straight forward. It requires no special equipment or techniques. Just common sense.
Don't smoke or eat while handling lead. Wash your hands before you do.
Keep your clothes that you wear when casting or smelting away from any young children before you get them washed. Lead effects children far more than it does adults.
Preferably, have a fan of some kind providing a very light breeze across the top of your casting area blowing away from you. It doesn't need to be much. Just enough to keep the air moving.
Even though lead will NOT vaporize at the temperatures we work with it, lead dust and oxides can and will form and get airborne. Unless something unusual happens that concentrates this stuff, you won't get enough in your system to be a problem.
Just don't chew on your casting gloves.
Lead from primers is a thing I know little to nothing about.
Lead handling, I do know something about since I had to deal with it every day for decades. It isn't hard or difficult. Just pay a little attention to what you are doing and you will never have a problem.
Except for the occasional visit from the tinsel fairy of course.

[b2lee]

And drink plenty of orange juice.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Lead handling, I do know something about since I had to deal with it every day for decades. It isn't hard or difficult. Just pay a little attention to what you are doing and you will never have a problem.
Except for the occasional visit from the tinsel fairy of course.

Yes! Nothing drastic. I was just taking dust from primers into consideration.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I went to citric acid wash and then I tumble in walnut shell , not for the lead dust which primarily comes from the segregating of brass out of media . First wash in citric then shake out toss in tumblers let run for awhile switch over to next tumbler and then it is done . As a benefit the walnut shell media has gotten a little citric acid in to it and no more of the activating compound has been added , which was citric based by the smell.

[Gtek]

The never ending war between the ain't never hurt me, the chicken little's and the politics of misinformation and agendas. Lead really kills between a couple hundred FPS to a couple thousand FPS, yes Sir! It all becomes so overwhelming at some point what is real or not, maybe, who really knows. And with all the potential variables mixed in with the individual component it really helps lock down a statistical study parameter. I will admit I am more scared of the unknown fanny wipers out there that don't wash their hands and touched doors and cooks food out in the herd. That white hat looks mighty low out in the Romaine field., there, something else to worry about!

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Well I found an answer to my question:

Regardless of the potential differences between experimental conditions and real-life settings, the results of this comparative study do not support the recommended use of TSP for the reduction of lead dust exposure.

https://www.epa.gov/lead/executive-s...pa747-r-97-002

They tested a bunch of common household cleaners. Interesting note: they found more variability between who was doing the cleaning than they found between the cleaning chemicals.

So I will not put any effort into special soaps for cleaning brass. I will, however, switch to wet tumbling as a means of dust control. The vibratory tumbler I currently have is Lyman's orange pumpkin which has a slotted lid. Supposedly the lid is to serve as a sieve to sort the bras and media. But it doesn't help with dust control.

[mdi]

I do too. And when I read threads on Castboolits regarding lead poisoning I see that most people suffer no ill effects, but there are a few who have experienced high lead levels

.
I really like castboolits forum and respect most of the members, but it's still a "public" forum where, just like youtube, anyone can post almost anything without any proof, 99.0 % opinion.

I believe we are living in a sterile society with us being "protected" from everything that might, if you remained in contact with the substance 24/7 for 3 years, give you a headache. Much of which is demanded by the "Chicken Little" thinkers and politicians...

My opinion has been stated and I don't believe there will ever be a consistence on the subject. I'm done...

[BigAlofPa.]

I had my lead checked. It was 17. something. I started to wear latex gloves when decapping. Also recently added an air purifier with a hepa filter. I run it while brass is in the tumbler and for an hour after i turn off the tumbler. And i have a mask i put on when entering my loading room to turn off the tumbler and dump the brass out. Next check i'll find out if it helped.