Another Range Story of Stupidity

[Plate plinker]

Wow, I lost my reply! I thought it was auto saved but I can't find it.
Bob, yes, you are right, it would be pretty hard to cram a .32 Win. in a .30-30 chamber. The converse is not true but I wouldn't expect any catastrophic consequences. It is truly amazing how much abuse our guns can take without failing.

Yes modern guns are fairly tough. OLD guns not so much.

[Tom W.]

I saw my dad do that some years ago. I had my cousin's 30/30 and dad had his .32 special. My cousin handed me a box of shells and dad took a few to put into his rifle. We never fired either firearm, just took the shells and 30/30 back to my cousin.

[Artful]

I guess I am having a hard time understanding how firing a shorter case and a smaller caliber projectile (6.5 C/m in a 7.62 barrel) is going to pierce and blow out a primer and stick the case. What am I missing here? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm wondering about this too?

Head space issue gentlemen look at the picture



with 6.5 creedmore inserted into the 308 chamber when the firing pin hits it the cartridge is shot forward, the primer going off has no support so it's
going to back itself out of the case and onto the firing pin (hence the piercing) and the case is going to grab the walls of the chamber but also isn't
supported so it may (crack/seperate, try and slide backwards to the bolt giving a hammering to the bolt and sticking it in place, split lengthwise at the neck, etc)

[GEOMETRIC]

Plate plinker said, "Yes modern guns are fairly tough. OLD guns not so much."

You are right as usual, I can't argue with that except old guns can be pretty tough also. The trouble is you are dealing with an unknown. Unless a gun has been built to a certain industry standard or has been reproofed in a reputable proof house, you are rolling the dice. Personally, I am not going to risk my eyesight & fingers based on an assumption. I make it a practice to err on the side of safety.

That being said, let me quote what a renowned British gunsmith told me, "A good gun can be fired with the appropriate ammunition, a bad gun shouldn't be fired at all". Have you read Tom Armsbrust's pressure tests of old damascus & fluid steel guns in the "Double Gun Journal" or the work of Sherman Bell? Does that mean I am going to run out & shoot modern smokless ammo. in a damascus rattle trap? Hell no!
I have hunted with Sherman Bell & I would have no reservations whatever shooting any of his guns that I saw with the ammunition he was using. I try to make decisions based on sound judgement and fact.
I like quotes & here are a couple more I like. I m not sure they are exact quotes but I think they accurately convey the message:
"One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions", : H.P. White Laboratories.
"it is very hard to convince someone of something they don't want to believe", : can't remember where I read that one.

[Plate plinker]

GEOMETRIC, I too like those quotes. Nice post.

[Down South]

Head space issue gentlemen look at the picture



with 6.5 creedmore inserted into the 308 chamber when the firing pin hits it the cartridge is shot forward, the primer going off has no support so it's
going to back itself out of the case and onto the firing pin (hence the piercing) and the case is going to grab the walls of the chamber but also isn't
supported so it may (crack/seperate, try and slide backwards to the bolt giving a hammering to the bolt and sticking it in place, split lengthwise at the neck, etc)

Thank you sir for explaining this. Even though I knew what happened, you did a great job of explaining it.

[Artful]

Thank you sir for explaining this. Even though I knew what happened, you did a great job of explaining it.

Your most welcome

[TAC14]

I would not think that a .263 bullet rattling down a .308 bore would generate enough pressure to do much of anything.

If the 6.5 CM case was so headstamped and fired in a 308 chamber it shuda looked like a short necked 308.

Now a 308 would not fit in a CM chamber .

People who cannot match the correct ammo to the correct rifle should only be allowed to own one rifle.

[GEOMETRIC]

I'll second that thank you. I knew their was a logical explanation but I didn't know what it was. Now I do!

[fatelk]

The one that worries me a bit is accidentally putting a 300 Blackout in a 5.56 rifle. Now that I have each and they take the same magazines I’m especially cautious.

The profile of the bullets I use in the .300 is such that they won’t actually chamber in the 5.56 but I still worry.

[MT Gianni]

I would not think that a .263 bullet rattling down a .308 bore would generate enough pressure to do much of anything.

If the 6.5 CM case was so headstamped and fired in a 308 chamber it shuda looked like a short necked 308.

Now a 308 would not fit in a CM chamber .

People who cannot match the correct ammo to the correct rifle should only be allowed to own one rifle.

In "The Bullets Flight" Dr Mann wrote of a barrel that exploded when the wrong powder was used. The cartridge was a 270 Winchester fred in a 30-06 bbl. I would assume that the excess pressure would pass by the bullet but it did not. Evidently it expanded it enough to fill the grooves and then some.

[TAC14]

Most 6.5 CM powders are also used in the 308. I doubt the CM was loaded with something like Bullseye. .277 is also a lot bigger than .263.

Still wish I had that old 98 from Israel.

[lefty o]

The one that worries me a bit is accidentally putting a 300 Blackout in a 5.56 rifle. Now that I have each and they take the same magazines I’m especially cautious.

The profile of the bullets I use in the .300 is such that they won’t actually chamber in the 5.56 but I still worry.

thats a good way to keep it, as far too many people have blow their AR's into many small pieces firing the 300bo in a 5.56 rifle.

[GEOMETRIC]

I keep telling people ballistics, particularly internal ballistics, is a very complicated subject. Things happen that seem to defy logic at times. I recall making what I thought was a harmless generic substitution loading a nontoxic shot for my 10 ga. Beretta sxs. The shot was advertised as using the same data as lead. The loads shot fine with no ill effects that I could detect. That particular gun is built like the proverbial brick you know what & was proofed in Italy for a much higher pressure service load than the SAAMI maximum. I decided to do what I should have done before I fired any of them which was send it off to get pressure tested. The results came back with a note that said, "DON'T FIRE ANY OF THESE LOADS". That load produced pressure more than 5,000 psi. above SAAMI maximum. The gun is proofed to higher pressure than the SAAMI maximum but not that high. BTW, I never exceed SAAMI maximum even though the gun may be proofed to a higher level, in this case it is proofed to CIP high velocity steel pressure. There is no reason to exceed SAAMI limits as I get all the ballistics I need at that level with less wear & tear on me & the equipment.

[fatelk]

Back when I was young and stupid, and had just bought my first used shotshell loader, I very nearly blew up my Mossberg 500.

The old guy I bought the MEC 600 from gave me a bunch of components; shot, wads, powder, hulls, manuals. I carefully looked up the proper recipe in the book for the components I had and loaded several with increasing charges from minimum to maximum.

The powder I used came from an old Alcan 5 tin. It had something faded written in sharpie on the lid but I couldn’t make it out. As I recall the max for that powder was something like 29 grains for the recipes I was using, so I started at 25 going up. I went out into the garden (I was a teenager on the farm) and proceeded to fire them into the ground.

The first one roared and kicked harder than I was expecting. That was odd, I thought, but I shot the next one. It roared and kicked worse, and the hull came out with the crimp ironed out. Weird, what’s with that? Like an imbecile teenager I shot another. It felt and sounded like a cannon. The action popped open on its own and when I got the hull out the base was bulged and there was no crimp left at all. I finally got a clue and stopped, without shooting the last one.

I went in and double checked my recipe in the book, then started checking all the components. I looked closely at the powder and tin it was in. Try as I might I couldn’t make out what was written on top. I finally turned it over and clearly written on the bottom was “Green Dot”.

I looked back in the book for a Green Dot recipe, and the maximum was something like 22 grains. Am I lucky to be alive, with both eyes and all my fingers?

[GEOMETRIC]

fatelk,
I had a similar experience when I was about the same age. Dad bought a Herters shotshell reloader. I want to say model 79 but I'm not sure. There were no plastic hulls or wads at that time & the loader came with an adjustable powder & shot measure. You just adjusted the powder & shot the measure threw by using the correct no. of spacer discs. The data called for "X" amount of powder for "X" amount of shot & that was it. All the wads were card & fiber filler wads that you adjusted by trial & guess. Then Winchester came out with their AA compression formed hull. It was still business as usual but then Pop bought 500 one piece Herters plastic wads. Nobody told me & I was too dumb to know pressure would go through the roof using the old data for paper hulls & fiber wads in a AA hull with a plastic wad. Dad's LC Smith survived but had to go to the gunsmith to get the forend lug soldered back in place. It still lockes up as tight as it ever did & I still shoot it but my Stevens Fox didn't fare as well. I got rid of it because it would come open every time I shot it. I don't know what the pressure was but I think I can be thankful I didn't wind up with a face full of shrapnel!

[fatelk]

I forgot to mention that my old Mossberg survived fine, amazingly. I still have it and it’s still going strong. It is impressive how much abuse modern firearms can take.

A friend started loading some time back and I helped him get set up. We developed a good load for his .300 Win mag using H4831. He called me maybe a year later to say he almost blew up his rifle, couldn’t figure out what went wrong. He had a round that flowed the brass into the bolt head where he had to use a hammer to open the bolt.

Long story short he hadn’t loaded any since getting set up, then months later just adjusted his powder measure to drop that charge. He checked a couple drops on the scale then just dropped powder into the whole loading block without checking any more.

Of course 4831 will settle in the hopper after a few drops, and most of his rounds were at least a couple grains too hot. I don’t know what kind of pressure those loads generated but it was pretty scary.

[dale2242]

I had a friend ruin a Remington 721 barreled in 257AI.
He loaded 4895 with 4831 data.
Luckily he was not hurt....dale

[Artful]

I had a friend ruin a Remington 721 barreled in 257AI.
He loaded 4895 with 4831 data.
Luckily he was not hurt....dale

Very Lucky, I knew a gentleman who did something similar who then went several fingers short the rest of his long life.

[kmrra]

Good call but Im really doubtful that the creedmore would fire in the 308 as it looks like that the shoulder would be pushed in too far allowing the primer or head of the case to even go up in the bolt head. I would have to try one im my 308 just to find out , and even if it did for I dought that any harm would be done other that the bullet would just fly off into knowhere. But that was a goodcall I will try it and let everyone know , Im not sceared LOL, might me stupid but not sceared LOL