One of my regrets is that I warped the crane of a fine K38 Combat Masterpiece with heavy loads. Wish I had stuck to standard pressure loadings.
One of my regrets is that I warped the crane of a fine K38 Combat Masterpiece with heavy loads. Wish I had stuck to standard pressure loadings.
The K is a classic. It does what it does without abuse. I have never seen a frame stretch, never seen a weak S&W. Wear without lube---Yes. front bushing dry and stretch must be the answer.
I have had cranes bent from TV slamming the cylinders shut. DON'T.
But I can't see a K harmed by +P.
Well, there is Plus P and then there is PLUS P. Anyone who has seen the Speer #8 knows the difference. Speer#8 type loads will jack up a medium frame revolver, especially older ones, in reasonably short order.
As I said, handloaded standard pressure 38 is ample for most uses and can drive a 158 at 950 fps from a 4 inch. Not much more is really needed for most uses to which a 38 revolver is put.
I have to agree. If I need more than what a 38 Special will do with a standard load, I am going to be using magnum loads anyway, or at least a larger handgun/caliber.
I remember the old Speer manual and how hot some of those loads were. I got rid of it for that reason.
I have seen more J frames ruined with +P, than K frames. Especially the older light weight models. All in all I have seen more damage to guns with factory +P, than caused by handloading
mistakes. If you stick with intended ammo a S&W will last forever. If you want a SD load for your
M14 just buy a box of top shelf hollow points. I don't know how many S&Ws I have owned but
I have 50+ at present time. I still have ones bought new in 60s and several bought used in 60s.
From 22s to 44mags they have been the most trouble free and accurate revolvers I have owned.
Back in 70s I dabbled in Colts but went back to S&W, now even in S&Ws I only look for the older
models that were P&R with 3Ts.
Air Force experience with the M15 .38 Special K-frame revolver firing the PGU/12B 130-grain FMJ +P load was that the guns didn't last long at all.
Police experience with the S&W M19 .357 revolver was that as long as .38 Special standard pressure ammo was used for practice and qualification, and +P or .357 used only for limited duty use, in a 5:1 ratio, that the guns held up, BUT once training and doctrine changed such that law enforcement officers trained and qualified with the duty ammo they carried, the Model 19, even with annual maintenance, would fail prematurely.
THAT is why S&W came up with the "L" frame.
Do your own Rockwell hardness tests on your K38 frame. If you find that the frame will not even register on the Rockwell "C" scale, therein lies the clue and you should not shoot +P in it. Period.
If your S&W Model 15 or 19 frame does not register Rc24 Min. I wouldn't count on it lasting very long with .357 magnum or .38 Special +P+ LE loads such as Q4070, and even at that, it will be less durable than a Colt Trooper, S&W 28, Ruger, etc.
FWIW my Ruger Service Six I built at the Armorer's School when attending there in 1985 tested Rc40. I kept a logbook on it and when I sent it back to the factory for refurb when notified that they were using up the last remaining parts in Customer Service, this was back in 2002, the revolver had logged over 100,000 .38 Special loads, most of those being standard pressure lead loads, and perhaps 1000 Q4070 +P+ during the life of the gun until then. This was a .38 Special.
After 100,00 rounds they fitted a new "long" cylinder to take up the 0.003" end-shake which had developed, replaced the pawl and bolt and reblued it. This is the DA test target which came back with it.
They also returned it with the whacked coppers used to verify striker indent, 0.012"! which is about 0.002" more than your average S&W .38 does, and meets the military spec for the 9mm M9 pistol.
Attachment 194470
Last edited by Outpost75; 05-01-2017 at 11:41 AM.
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Anecdote: The first S&W Combat Magnum (later Model 19) I ever saw came out of the holster of Bill Jordon out on the Rio Grande River. He and another Border Patrolman rolled up on me while I was launching rounds into the river bank on the Mexican side of the river. He joined in the plinking. He took his Combat Magnum out of his holster, unloaded the hot loaded cast HP rounds and filled it with 38 Special wadcutter target loads from his Jeep. He fired very few 357 Magnum loads through his revolver.
I got to shoot his revolver that afternoon long years ago albeit with wadcutter target loads.
Addendum: I am not a science/engineering type guy like Outpost and don't know Rockwell hardness from a hole in the ground, but I have seen several bushel baskets full of Smith and Wesson 38/357 J and K frames that were shot loose with high pressure loads.
I still use standard pressure loads in my J and K frames for general shooting. I will stuff some hotter loads in there for social purposes, but I only shoot enough of those to verify point of impact. I do shoot some low end 357 Magnum loads through a Ruger OM Blackhawk and that fine revolver seems to be everlasting.
Last edited by Char-Gar; 05-01-2017 at 11:06 AM.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
That must've been one of life's great moments, Char-Gar! To plink the Rio Grande Mexican bank with Bill Jordan and HIS Combat Magnum! I met him several times late in his life and truly enjoyed that, but wish I had been able to shoot with him.
Colt's Manufacturing Company Armorer Instructor
Aimpoint USA L/E Pro Staff
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
I was only about 17 and too stupid to appreciate the circumstances. I knew who he was, but that is about all. At that time, I was also shooting allot of Skeet and Bill shot at the same place and we were on the same squad several times. In fact we were in the same squad when I shot my first 25 score.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
I wasn't aware that those 130 gr. loads were made in +P. When I was on a Guard pistol team we were occasionally give some M41 ball ammo to play with. That stuff was really junk. A little over 700 fps with a 130 gr bullet out of my model 14 and 4-5" 50 yd groups. About the only thing it was good for was plinking tin cans.Air Force experience with the M15 .38 Special K-frame revolver firing the PGU/12B 130-grain FMJ +P load was that the guns didn't last long at all.
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle
From the Wikipedia entry:
Attachment 194555
A request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.[19] Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[19] The PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge differs from M41 Special ammunition in two important respects—the PGU-12/B is a much higher-pressure cartridge, with a bullet deeply set and crimped into the cartridge case.
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Keep it to yourself.
Did the USAF +P ammo have crimped-in primers too? I kind of recall finding a few pieces of fired military .38 brass with primer crimps over the years, and wondering why somebody had felt it necessary to put a crimp on revolver loads.
Yes, mine has crimped primers and LC79 headstamp.
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My M41 WCC 74 cases were uncrimped and have been excellent for reloading. I start5ed with over 2K but am down now to about 800.
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle
I picked up a couple of boxes of this ammo a few years back to go with my model 15, I can post some pics later. I carried it daily in the AF and when we qualified you could tell it was definitely hotter. I fired a few in my 4" model 15 and they ran right around 950 FPS.
Just thought I`d drop this news gem on the site. An online gun auction ended last night. A S&W 14 - 3 with Pachmyer grips went for $450 plus auction commision fee. It looked to be in very nice condition with good blueing.Robert
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |