Catastrophic Failure - 1893 Spanish Mauser

[Dutchman]

I posted these photos here as public information in the interest of educating those who don't have experience with these types of Mausers. I never said the person who blew
it up was the same person who was trying to sell it.

The cause of this failure isn't known. I wasn't fishing for opinions on why it failed. Too many times we just don't know. But for them who buy these types of Mausers, the 1893 and 1893/16 and FR7 thinking they're strong because they read it on the internet...well... they need to know and they need to ~see~ what happens when one fails.

We should never hesitate to say "I don't know....". It doesn't make you an ignorant idiot it just means there's not enough information to ascertain a cause. But making wildly assumptive guesses is as bad as being flat out wrong. Consider the number of people of all levels of experience who'll read these notes.

I learned the meaning of "prudent" from Ralph Waldo Emerson and it has nothing to do with the prudish girls we sneered at in junior high school. Being prudent means finding a level of comfort, if you will, and being happy with it instead of constantly beating your head against the wall and complaining that you have a headache.







Dutch

[Bret4207]

I'd lay a bet that it wasn't standard 308 ammo. I'm betting surplus steel jacketed stuff or home brew loads.

[JeffinNZ]

Looks like a full case of RED DOT to me.

What a waste. Shame.

[RP]

And he was trying to sell it for 100.00 wow scarpe metal must be very high in his area

[Larry Gibson]

I'll also bet that was not with .308W ammo, equivelant reloads or 7.62 NATO spec ammo. My guess is a case full of a very fast buring powder. Probably done by someone who wanted to prove how "unsafe" these were with 7.62 ammo nd went to some expense to do it. It could also be from a bore obstruction or SEE. Either of which cause the same type of extensive damage to the most modern of actions.

Too bad as the FR7/8s can be nice little rifles.

Larry Gibson

[jonk]

I would expect to see a progression of stretched reciever, hammered in lugs, etc., long before catastrophic failure. If this happened for real and not due to an overload or obstruction, someone ignored some big signs.

[mike in co]

strange that there are great pics of the rifle, but no cartridge pics....hmmmm sounds like a setup as others have said....

mike in co

[Bret4207]

Whoa dutchman! Don't get pissed, we're just throwing some ideas around. I've used a ot of '93's and '95s and had no issues at all. No one's saying anything about you, just theorizing on the guy that blew it up and how it happened.

[fishhawk]

man...i thought it was great of dutchman to put those up to see. but like he said he had no more information as to the "real" cause other than it was "supposedly" a 308, if your going to take offence at all of us trying to come up with the cause to prevent some one getting hurt......

[mike in co]

308 win works at 62k map amd 60k mpsm, and proofs between 83k and 89k psi.

7.62x51 operates at 50k psi and proofs at 67k psi.

before going any further you must understand that how the two pressures are measured are different so a direct comparison is not valid.

having said that there is a big difference in the two .


the case of this broken reciever is not the results of 16 to 20 or so additional kpsi....as others have said there was a bunch of pressure to cause the lugs to shear.

mike in co

[Larry Gibson]

Dutchman

There was nothing intended to discredit you or the post. It was most interesting. Please repost.

Larry Gibson

[Dutchman]

BTTtt

[pbbutz]

Thanks for putting up the pics back up!

[jhrosier]

There is an interesting article about the Spanish Mausers and the 7.62 cartridges here:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...tion/index.asp

Jack

[Echo]

Thanks, Dutdhman, for reposting. I was interested in what we were talking about, and I appreciate seeing evidence of what can happen.

[405]

Yes, Thanks for posting the pics.
No telling about details of the cause- other than it looks like a huge amount of pressure. I'm not at all familiar with the Mauser 93. The only similar high pressure load/action failure in a bolt gun that I'm familiar with was in a Mauser 98.... done on purpose and high speed filmed.
Like I said I'm not familiar with the 93 but that receiver ring design looks odd compared to the 98 and other similar actions like the Springfield, Win 54&70, Rem 700, etc.

Why no cartridge case to look at? Well, that brass-colored wash visible in the pics is the case

Prudent and conservative reloading gets my vote!

[Niner]

Where do the pictures come from? What's the actual story and actual evidence?

The truth about small ring M1916 Spanish Mausers blowing up after firing in reconfigured Nato caliber and also in the potentially even more powerful .308 caliber, has been hard to come by. This string only adds to the incomplete information.

Once upon a time the chief evidence of safety of the Spanish rifle was from a supposed White Labratory report, commissioned by an importer, and mentioned in a reprint of a reprint of a Guns & Ammo story. Flawed evidence on the one side at best. As to the other side, multiple unsubtantiated reports of castitrophic failure like this latest have followed over the years. No complete evidence ever offered or confirmed in any case that I'm aware of printed anywhere.

Reminds me of that recent Bigfoot story. Just one more log on the fire to a story that never ends.

[Buckshot]

.............Something educational to ponder between the pic's of this M93 Spanish and the blown up low number 03 Springfield at: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34480 The 2 photo's really put into perspective the meaning of the word "Brittle" as regards the 1903.

While the small ring DID blow up, the action with the exception of the top of the front reciever ring, is still intact. In fact the threaded portion of the action over the barrel shank is still there. Also it's evident the action bent, with the bridge being off of the actions centerline. Pull up the photo of the Springfield and place it next to the M93 Spanish.

The M93 blew up, but the 1903 shattered, grenaded, dis-integrated, disappeared, and pretty much simply dismantled itself.

................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Ya know, my eyes aren't that good, but isn't the right hand locking lug recess shoulder gone? I mean like not even a sign it ever existed? Wish I could see it in person.

[MtGun44]

It looks to me like a case rupture in the head area and insufficient venting.
Many early Mausers have no venting in the bolt head area and with a significant
increase in pressure from the 7x57 to the 7.62 NATO (45Kpsi to 60kpsi) it looks
like the action was destroyed by gas that couldn't vent well enough from the
bolt lug area. There is one vent visible, but apparently not enough to keep
from overloading the receiver ring which clearly failed outward, not rearward.

The failure seems to be ductile, lots of bent, yet intact material. The bolt went
back after the right locking shoulder area went away with the chunk of receiver
ring that is missing and the left one popped out far enough to release the other
lug. Note that both lugs are present and intact, not a thrust failure of the lugs.

Looks like an overload or bad case and the gun didn't have enough venting compared
to the strength of the steel. The 1903 Springfield has dual vents in this area but
Buckshots pix showed much more brittle behavior than this. Also note that brass
'plating' all over the interior area as the case literally partially vaporized.

Thanks for posting.

Bill