Overwhelmed By Self Defense Ammo Options

[9.3X62AL]

Magnet, if I may be so bold as to post again in this thread (because obviously 28 years of career experience/11 of which involved's robbery/homicide investigation with concurrent rangemaster role for 23 years) are utterly without value in some quarters.......my old shop's current issue ammo in 3 primary calibers is Winchester White Box JHP AKA "USA" branding--9mm x 147 grain, 40 S&W x 180 grain, and 45 ACP x 230 grain. These bullets are likely the old Ranger SXT branding, which itself was the evil Black Talon minus the black paint job and dewclaws. I have seen no examples of the 9mm bullet recovered at autopsy or hospital, because very few of our personnel carry 9mm pistols. I have seen several dozen of the 40 S&W and 45 ACP bullets upon recovery, and 95% of them could serve as ad copy for W-W ammo. I very much like--trust--and carry these WWB JHPs in my 40 S&W and 45 ACP sideiron/holsterplastic. Reasonably priced, reasonably available, and demonstrably effective IME. Folks could do worse than to buy a box or two of these loads For That Day, God forbid. 9mm? My choice is Speer Gold Dot 125 grain +P. The 9mm becomes viable when loaded to its full ballistic potential and given a controlled-expansion bullet. This Speer load is essentially the Armed Forces' M-882 9mm round upgraded with a bullet that might expand.

I do not believe in "magic bullets". Placement is key--load discussions like these are fine as far as they go, but remind me of medieval arguments about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot. All sorts of comment about the arrow, but little gets said about the Indian. My conclusions have always been to select good carry ammo, then use your hobby interest in ammo crafting to construct duplicate loads of your carry ammo that emulate your war shots' performance (velocity & downrange distribution). It ain't rocket science.

[yammerschooner]

Well your state is california and mine is Iowa. The prosecuters here have nothing better to do than question the topic of handloading vers factory loads which I have mentioned several times before. I have sat in the back of a court room analyzing the either lack of a sound system or the inadequate operation of their sound system in hopes of either repairing what they have or getting them fixed up with sonething that works well for them. The prosecuters here seem to think they can hang the shooter who used his gun in self defense on the factory vers handload theme and in some cases the Jury seems t go for it. As I believe I mentioned I personally will not carry the "Defense type" ammunition. The gun shops here push the defense ammunition hard telling everyone you don't want to get caught with handloads i your gun if you have to use it. So please don't come off with the retired law officer know it all type posts because your experience is not representative of all states.

Interesting. I would like to hear more as I was not aware of this. Of which County Attorney or Attorneys do you speak? If you could give me some cases I could inquire about I would be even more grateful.

Thanks in advance!

[Earlwb]

Handloads versus factory ammunition. I think it depends on the locale you live in, the political aspirations of the prosecutors or defense attorneys too and the laws in the state, etc. States or areas that are much more liberal or leftist leaning would tend to try to use handloaded ammunition against the person they are prosecuting. I was remembering a case years ago when hollow point bullets were coming out where someone loaded up some hollow point ammo for self defense purposes. The self defense shooting case was iffy to some extent. But the prosecutor was using the hollow point bullets against the person. The idea was to sway or influence the jury against the person.

California now bans hollow point bullets and New Jersey has banned hollow point bullets for a while now. I think some other states may be banning them too. New Jersey prosecutors do use the HP's against a person who used them in a shooting event too.

It is sort of frustrating in trying to get a google search to come up with examples. It seems everyone is reporting on it but not quoting examples of court cases for it.

reference http://www.secondcalldefense.org/firearm-attacked-court

in CA they banned hollow point bullets, so a prosecutor can easily use it against you in a court then.
http://controversialtimes.com/issues...-to-be-banned/

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/04/are-...#axzz4IuGBpIj4

http://www.gundigest.com/gun-blogs/b...oncealed-carry

[35remington]

Still hasn't happened or been a factor in a conviction in a self defense shooting.

Still.

"Bloodthirsty handloader" is more an Internet fabrication than a real event.

[9.3X62AL]

Earl--The State of California has not "banned" the sale of hollow-point ammunition. The law your source cites is a City/County of San Francisco ordinance. SFO is a microscopic and perverse 46.9 sq. mi. portion of a State encompassing 163,696 sq. mi.

[robertbank]

Al good information as always. I suspect you know the chances of me requiring to defend my life with a gun where I live are about the same as winning the Canadian Lottery 3 times on consecutive Wednesdays. That said, I do buy Lotto tickets.

I have a 226 Mke 25 by my bedside loaded with the 147 gr Win HP the RCMP carry, mostly because they are not dumb folks and I have a friend in the force who left me a box or two. Linda gets the Model 10 loaded with the 358477 HP cast soft when I am away. She cannot quickly pull the slide back on the 226 so the revolver is the better option. I work on the idea that if you can't hit with it, the ammo choice is moot.

Up here it is either a justifiable shoot and you are free or it isn't and you don't. We do have the Castle Principle up here which is solid after 1,000 years of case Law from England. I suspect your courts would be the same. Outside of your own residence the BG better be armed or your life clearly must have been in peril to justify lethal force.

Take Care

Bob

[Walkingwolf]

I can just imagine a commercial of the local coroner leaning over a bloody body holding a nice mushroom between his thumb and finger...saying..."If you wanna stop one of these perps and send him here...use one of these 'Brand-X' slugs!"

If a coroner is removing any type of bullet, it is a testament for that bullet. Even a 22 short...

[CraigOK]

I use:

• Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point

because they expand as they should and you can get them in 50 round boxes and per round its significantly cheaper than buying the small boxes of other brands.

[jonp]

Magnet, if I may be so bold as to post again in this thread (because obviously 28 years of career experience/11 of which involved's robbery/homicide investigation with concurrent rangemaster role for 23 years) are utterly without value in some quarters.......my old shop's current issue ammo in 3 primary calibers is Winchester White Box JHP AKA "USA" branding--9mm x 147 grain, 40 S&W x 180 grain, and 45 ACP x 230 grain. These bullets are likely the old Ranger SXT branding, which itself was the evil Black Talon minus the black paint job and dewclaws. I have seen no examples of the 9mm bullet recovered at autopsy or hospital, because very few of our personnel carry 9mm pistols. I have seen several dozen of the 40 S&W and 45 ACP bullets upon recovery, and 95% of them could serve as ad copy for W-W ammo. I very much like--trust--and carry these WWB JHPs in my 40 S&W and 45 ACP sideiron/holsterplastic. Reasonably priced, reasonably available, and demonstrably effective IME. Folks could do worse than to buy a box or two of these loads For That Day, God forbid. 9mm? My choice is Speer Gold Dot 125 grain +P. The 9mm becomes viable when loaded to its full ballistic potential and given a controlled-expansion bullet. This Speer load is essentially the Armed Forces' M-882 9mm round upgraded with a bullet that might expand.

I do not believe in "magic bullets". Placement is key--load discussions like these are fine as far as they go, but remind me of medieval arguments about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot. All sorts of comment about the arrow, but little gets said about the Indian. My conclusions have always been to select good carry ammo, then use your hobby interest in ammo crafting to construct duplicate loads of your carry ammo that emulate your war shots' performance (velocity & downrange distribution). It ain't rocket science.

Good advice and very interesting. Seems all that special high priced super double secret probation self defense ammo might not be needed after all. I do have one quibble and a very minor one.

"When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot."

I would think that is an argument not for any load selection but if that few actually do reach the intended target it is an argument for the ammo that does make it to be the best you can get.

[jonp]

Attachment 175408Attachment 175409

You said that you roll your own...just adjust your lead a bit softer, do some load work-ups and tests and you will get better results than buying all that expensive self defense hype that has to go sonic to expand. This is what handloading is all about...custom ammo period...well, unless you are just an assembler, there is a difference.
I want a boolit that is going to most likely stay in the perp, not go somewhere only God knows and injure someone else.
Hit them hard, more than once, hit them where you intend to...don't stop until the threat is docile and dead.

No, these were not .45 ACP loaded to the gills...863 FPS, 238 grains Powder Coated, 4.8 g. of 700-X and fired primers have big round edges...low pressure.
Sorta like stopping a slow freight train. Use any HP profile you like and feeds reliably in your platform...you have all the controls at hand. I can't think of a better solution for these short barreled 9's.

Here's how to do it...Casting Hollow Points...Best Pic's...Your Success Tips...?

you don't say what alloy your using.

[9.3X62AL]

Good advice and very interesting. Seems all that special high priced super double secret probation self defense ammo might not be needed after all. I do have one quibble and a very minor one.

"When 91% of your shots fired defensively DO NOT impact the intended target in the first place, load selection arguments are almost moot."

I would think that is an argument not for any load selection but if that few actually do reach the intended target it is an argument for the ammo that does make it to be the best you can get.

That is an equally valid assertion, sir. We return to a complex dichotomy--and I don't mean to emphasize philosophical grounding here. Is it better to score hits with weaker loads than to create misses with more heavy loadings? THAT is FBI's rationale for advocating the 9mm/147 grain JHP to LE orgs. Those uber-hyped bullets need to hit something to "do their magic"--misses just endanger uninvolved lives and property. The 91% miss rating is my shop's (and virtually all other LE orgs') hit percentage, which is abysmal. It is not real charitable to criticize the misses by either LEOs or citizen self-defenders for performances under extreme duress--reasonable fear for loss of life--we still need to strive for the best targeting possible as a matter of good conscience. Once we have a better handle on defensive accuracy, then perhaps it becomes time to discuss bullet construction.

[OS OK]

jonp...I used straight SOWW's (stick on wheel weights) with nothing else added, not even Sn. Believe it or not...they cast beautifully...'fill-out supremious!'.
The BHN was 7.4 on the same day I casted...doesn't mean anything too much, as they harden as time passes up to a couple of weeks.
I'm building a tank that I can water test these HP's in and have a better knowledge of them over 'hardening time'...will be a while till I post on that as I just got a tank to use today. It needs some good ole home grown, shade tree engineering just yet.

[OS OK]

Hey...fellas, don't get all wound around the axle here...my premise is that we use a 'homegrown' HP that is more likely than not, to penetrate the perp and stay within same... and, not travel on do damage elsewhere. 'Slow heavy freight trains'.
Shot placement depends entirely on how practiced and how 'cool' you are able to react under the pressure of death. "Under the pressure of death."
We all react differently whether we appraise ourselves as 'Rambo' or not. Should you be successful in the encounter...my question is this..."did the round pass through the perp and potentially endanger another, or did it stay in the perp?" High velocity factory rounds, I think, will continue on to make you liable downrange.

That's all I'm trying to address here...charlie

[Markbo]

I saw a picture recently...I think on Facebook. It was of about 20 recovered bullets - all HPs, a LOT of which had obviously failed miserably. 3 of the bullets stood out. Federal Hydra-Shok. They all 3 were shot through different thicknesses of clothing and were absolutely perfect. No note of the weight though. Along with the SXT and Speer gold dots these are on my short list to accuracy test in my new Ruger lightweight commander 9mm.

Just an FWIW I have not had good results with Hornady TAP ammo in 3 different calibers.

[tdoyka]

reliable and consistent. 250gr mihek hollow point and a skeeter load in my ruger super blackhawk(4 5/8" barrel) in 44 sp.

[9.3X62AL]

tdoyka--I like the "Skeeter Load" in 44 Special as felon repellent--very much. Its cousin the lead-bullet 41 Magnum loading is close--a 210 grain SWC at 900-950 FPS. For the 40 S&W and 45 ACP I use the 180 and 230 grain bullets in the WWB JHP, and these clock similar velocities of ~950 and 900 FPS respectively. Once you get a bullet of about .200+ sectional density and .40" diameter moving at 900 or more feet per second, reliable performance with decent hits takes place most of the time.

[dubber123]

Hey...fellas, don't get all wound around the axle here...my premise is that we use a 'homegrown' HP that is more likely than not, to penetrate the perp and stay within same... and, not travel on do damage elsewhere. 'Slow heavy freight trains'.
Shot placement depends entirely on how practiced and how 'cool' you are able to react under the pressure of death. "Under the pressure of death."
We all react differently whether we appraise ourselves as 'Rambo' or not. Should you be successful in the encounter...my question is this..."did the round pass through the perp and potentially endanger another, or did it stay in the perp?" High velocity factory rounds, I think, will continue on to make you liable downrange.

That's all I'm trying to address here...charlie

Something that might surprise you is slower rounds often penetrate more, not less due to the smaller frontal area the slower rounds often have due to reduced expansion.

If they both expand the same, I agree the faster ones should penetrate more, but I have had a hard time getting HP's to expand reliably below a certain speed.