Helpful hint for point forming

[DukeInFlorida]

I had my gorilla muscled buddies helping me point form .224 bullets, and was having a horrible time with ejection pins bending. What it was is that they were trying to process the point forming step too fast.

Here's my fix, and it seems to work VERY well......

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Trying to be productive, I moved the point forming tool for the 224 bullets over to the left side press. I wanna get those finished up.

If you recall, we discovered a bent pin from the previous use, and cut a new one to length, and installed that, when we did the bullet swage party last Friday. .

As I moved the point form die over, and worked at setting it up, I discovered that the spring loaded top pin wasn't operating properly. I opened the die up, and discovered..............
Another bent ejection pin. So... started thinking about what might be going on, and here's what I come up with.............
1) The preforms are properly lubed, no issues there.

2) The tool is properly set, so that the point gets closed up nice and tight. No problem there.
3) The ejection pin is very small diameter. .062", and well over an inch long.
4) When ejecting the formed bullet after swaging, the lube acts to create a SUCTION in the point form die.

5) If activating the ejection pin too fast, the suction will overwhelm the strength of the .062" long pin, and cause it to bend.
TRYING TO GO TOO FAST will do that.
6) As a test, I ran the preforms into the die at normal speed, allowed it to dwell at the top of the stroke for a second (the lead flow needs that extra time at the top of the stroke), and then slowly and GENTLY started pushing on the ejection pin, allowing for a slight chance to break the suction. Perfect ejection.

I was able to run many hundreds of the bullets using this technique, and yes... it's slower... BUT, not a single bend in the ejection pin. And, not a single stuck bullet.

I'll add this to the instructions for the .224 bullet swage, and we'll need to remember to be more careful in the future with these ejection pins. We cannot just go ka-chunka, ka-chunka when making these. Brut force and speed are not conducive for good bullet forming.
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Hope this helps others also....................

[plus1hdcp]

Thanks for sharing. I can understand your group trying to maximize the speed as didn't I read your goal was 10,000 or something like that. What a marathon session that would be!

[BT Sniper]

Glad you are achieving success with the bullet production and passing on your results yet the number and possible reasons for these bent ejection pins concerns me.

Can you post a pick of what the bent pins look like? You mentioned "As I moved the point form die over, and worked at setting it up, I discovered that the spring loaded top pin wasn't operating properly". Can you elaborate a bit for me? How was it operating or not operating? How could you tell there was a problem, what indications where there? How long do you suspect it was in operation with a bent ejection pin? Have you guys ever broke one of these pins or just bending them?

It sounds like you have found a technique and rhythm that works for you with your individual set of variables. Variables being anything from the press used, lube, weight of bullet, jacket, uniqueness of the point form die, setting of ejection system, etc. What works for you may or may not work as well for others depending on their unique set of variables. All these point form dies are hand made and while very close in design no two are exactly alike and each will have it's own unique little set of traits. Being that yours was one of my early, if not first designs it could very well be that current production dies will not exhibit the same tendencies towards bent ejection pins that you are experiencing. Of course I'll be happy to look it over if you still experience problems.

I have flat out broke a couple of these pins before with an improper setting of the top bolt of the die but I get very few bent pins both personally or reported back from customers.

The support/hole at the top of the bullet cavity of the point form die for which this pin is located needs to be at least twice the length of the diameter of the pin to ensure good support and alignment of this pin while it is in motion (I typically shoot for a lot more support then that when machining these dies). That would be a length of .124" minimum in the case of the small .062 pin. Of course the depth of this hole is controlled by the one that machines the die, me in this case. Obviously a longer hole for this small pin will equal more support and ensure proper guidance of the motion of this pin. Point being.......if this hole is already at a minimum length for support of this pin the adjustment of the top stop bolt of the die will become more critical the shorter it is.

I wonder if your top stop bolt may be set too high? Not saying it is or isn't but in the process of of trying to eliminate all variables it is something to look at. If it was set too high at a point where the pin is barley held in place (supported) at the start of this hole it could lead to the chance of a bind or drag in the initial movement of the pin back down into and threw this hole, I suppose this could also lead to the possibility of bending a pin. Of course one can imagine the risk if the top bolt was set even higher at a point for which the end of the pin is out side the opening of this hole unsupported, this would lead to possible broken pins. Since you are cutting your own pins the length of these pins will vary slightly and as such the setting of this top pin will need to vary. There are two good ways to check for the proper setting of this top stop bolt of the die.

1. use the control bullet (solid machined brass bullet I provide with die sets). With the control bullet inside the die at the top of the stroke adjust the top stop bolt so the internal ejection pins makes contact with the tip of the control bullet then set the lock ring.

2. during production stop at the top stroke of one of your bullets formed (dwell you call it) and then adjust the top stop bolt with the bullet still in the die. Adjust this stop bolt till you feel the ejection pin make contact with the top of the formed bullet. This will be the lowest possible adjustment of this stop bolt. You can lock this top bolt in place at this setting and the die should be good to go, be carful how much you back off this adjustment from this point. I would back off no more then a small fraction of a turn from this point, maybe 1/8 of a turn max or less.

Ensuring this top bolt is set at this optimal setting should ensure for the best chance at eliminating any of the potential mechanical problems, the rest will be up to the techniques used by the individual, like those you have mentioned in your personal experience with your point form die.

As I said, getting to know the individual tendencies or traits of a point form die and how it likes to operate will be unique to all users. It sounds like you have found a system and developed your "feel" for the operation of this die in how it pertains to all your unique variables to avoid any further bent ejection pins but should you experience any further problems please feel free to allow me to look over your die for you.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Actually, Brian, its just exactly as i said....

We were pushing too hard on the eject pin, because of the ejection speed, and were pressing so hard that we overcame the column strength of that long skinny eject pin. By going much slower, and allowing the vacuum of the swage lube in the die to release slowly, im not seeing the bent pins any more.

I marvel at how intricate the machining on the pins are, and know that we cant go chunk a chunk fast point forming. The die is set perfectly, the bullets eject perfectly, and point form perfectly.

[BT Sniper]

Sounds good then. Just a matter of going a little slower. Can't go wrong with that!

Swage on!

BT

[newcastter]

It happens to the best of us, I too have bent a few pins in my day and also came to the conclusion suction must be being created, I never associated speed with it as I tend to keep a steady smooth rhythm. So I just ordered a few sticks of 1/16" rod and I have pins for life. Completely different manufacture by the way. Thanks for the post, a subject in need of discussion I think.

[bullet maker 57]

I've bent a few over the years. I also slowed down and had better results.

[onomrbil]

Duh....

[Sitzme]

[ I too have bent a few pins in my day and also came to the conclusion suction must be being created, [/QUOTE]


I think that what is being seen is the difference between starting friction and sliding friction, and not suction. Once the bullet is moving the force required to keep it moving is lower than that required to get it started. It is also why anti-lock brakes will stop your vehicle in a shorter distance. The clearance around the ejector pin is also probably enough to prevent much of a vacuum from forming.

area of .224 dia is .0394 sq in
.0394 x 15 psi (approx perfect vac) = .59 lb (not much force!)

[DukeInFlorida]

While some of that comes into play, the gorillas I have been working with were really RUSHING to pump out production (you'd think they were on piece rate)... The suction, and starting friction all played a role. There have not been any bent pins since deliberately slowing down.