.38 Super v 9mm

[Walkingwolf]

I am not positive but I believe that current colt barrels headspace on the case mouth. Should be able to see looking down the barrel. Even my 38 specials will headspace on the case mouth if they had no rim. Just take a 357 case that has not been roll crimped and it will stop leaving the exact difference between a seated 38 special, a 357 uncrimped case. I once owned a 38 super and it was very accurate, sorry I traded it. My revolvers that headspace on the rim are very accurate especially my S&W model 25.

38 super does allow for roll crimping on hot loads. I never found I needed a roll crimp.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Walking wolf, I do believe all Supers now head space on the mouth. It took Colt a while to admit this though and was probably the last to do it, late 1990's, early 2000's if I'm not mistaken.

[dverna]

A 9mm +P is pretty close to a .38 Super in factory loadings. And there are a lot more loadings for the 9mm. Plus brass is cheap and easy to get.

[RJM52]

Colt barrels were headpsaced on the case rim from 1929 to 1990+-. The first Colt manufactured 1911 with a headspaced on the case mouth barrel was the SUPER ELITE in 1986. It was a distributor exclusive for AccuSport Corp. who demanded that the chamber be cut that way.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=182030

Colt probably changed only because they were being made to look bad from new 1911 manufacturers like Springfield Armory, Detonics, AMT and others who all headspaced their Supers on the case mouth from day one and their guns all badly outshot Colts... That and in the early 1980s the .38 Super was "discovered" by the IPSC crowd all of whom were replacing their barrels with BarSto because the Colts shot so bad...

The new Colt Supers are excellent shooters however.

If it were me starting all over again, I would buy a target sighted 1911 like a Kimber Stainless Target II or SA Rangemaster and have a second barrel fitted along with a .22 Conversion Unit... Then you have a powerful accurate round for maximum results when carrying, a cheap practice round and a .22 for plinking and small game...

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/C...mo%20Tests.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm

http://www.38super.net/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Trail+...I.-a0285993666


Bob

[Forrest r]

If it were me starting all over again, I would buy a target sighted 1911 like a Kimber Stainless Target II or SA Rangemaster and have a second barrel fitted along with a .22 Conversion Unit... Then you have a powerful accurate round for maximum results when carrying, a cheap practice round and a .22 for plinking and small game...
Bob

+1^^^^^

[IMG][/IMG]

The Marvel conversion kits are extremely accurate and make an excellent addition to any 1911.

[IMG][/IMG]

I've owned/shot allot of 1911's in 38super over the decades. We'd buy 38 supers and have 9mm bbl's fitted to them. If you are going to:
Shoot light bullets, either caliber will work.
Target/plinking loads, either caliber will work.

The only place the 38super has any real advantage over the 9mm is with 158gr/160gr bullets. If your not going to shoot full house loads with 160gr bullets in the 38super, I'd get a 9mm 1911 and not look back.

9mm brass is everywhere/free
9mm is an extremely accurate caliber in the 1911

A 1100fps+ 125gr hp plinking load for the 9mm 1911

[IMG][/IMG]

[Petrol & Powder]

A 9mm +P is pretty close to a .38 Super in factory loadings. And there are a lot more loadings for the 9mm. Plus brass is cheap and easy to get.

And 9mm +P+ is even closer.

The 38 Super brass is not common and is expensive.

The 38 Super is a fine cartridge and can out perform the run of the mill 9mm luger but the difference becomes thinner when you push the 9mm to its limits. If I was trying to make a power factor the 38 Super or 9 x 23 would be my choice but for general fun shooting, the 9mm is going to be far less expensive.

[Walkingwolf]

One of the things about 38 super, and 9X23 is I hardly ever hear of FTF, or FTE problems. Anytime I have heard a gun owner complain it has always been a 9mm, the shorter tapered cartridge has to have a perfect magazine to be reliable. The 38 super is both longer, and a straighter case.

I have a 9mm Largo, and I would not trade it for 9mm, or use a 9mm barrel. I load all my own ammo so any savings on ammo are moot to me. Also 9mm operates at considerably higher pressure to achieve the same velocity.

[dverna]

WW

Good 9mm ammo is very reliable. I took a defensive handgun course and fired 600 rounds without a FTF or FTE using a Lone Wolf barrel in a Glock. High pressures are if no concern. Brass life for a 9mm is irrelevant as cases are $25/1000 delivered to your door if you cannot get them for free at the range.

I do not load to +P pressures for practice ammo but use +P for defensive loads. Nothing wrong with the .38 Super but IMHO it is not a significant improvement over a 9mm. Plus the 9mm is available in high capacity pistols - just seems like a better option for most people.

[robertbank]

WW

Good 9mm ammo is very reliable. I took a defensive handgun course and fired 600 rounds without a FTF or FTE using a Lone Wolf barrel in a Glock. High pressures are if no concern. Brass life for a 9mm is irrelevant as cases are $25/1000 delivered to your door if you cannot get them for free at the range.

I do not load to +P pressures for practice ammo but use +P for defensive loads. Nothing wrong with the .38 Super but IMHO it is not a significant improvement over a 9mm. Plus the 9mm is available in high capacity pistols - just seems like a better option for most people.

This, plus 9MM is available everywhere on virtually every continent except Antarctica. Too, it has proven itself effective longer than any other pistol cartridge made today.

Take Care

Bob

[Ithaca Gunner]

With all the positive points for the 9x19mm cartridge, (and there a lot!) on a 1911 platform though, I'd build a Super with a 9mm barrel and mags as a "just in case" thing. I don't dislike the 9mm, I just like the Super.

[9.3X62AL]

I have very little hands-on time with the 38 Super, less than 100 rounds in my lifetime. 9mm I have fired at least 100,000 of. There is my bias, out front.

I have never been attracted to the 38 Super, though I reload and enjoy a number of calibers far less common than the "trienta-ocho esupero". It just never offered enough-better performance than the 9mm does to prompt its addition. Due to load selection by my agency, I don't carry the 9mm socially any more, it's 357 Mag/40 S&W/45 ACP for me.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I'm just the opposite, I've got more trigger time with the Super, but only because I prefer the 1911 platform over any other self loading pistol. That said, I'll state this, the Super is a better cartridge for hand-loading, but to realize the true potential of the round, it really should be in a ramped barrel where +P+ loads bring it into the .357Magnum realm. I've never hand-loaded for the 9x19mm simply because ammo is so cheap! Really, I recently saw 9x19mm on sale somewhere for right around $300.00 a 1,000! At that price...I ain't reloadi'n it!

Now for real world effectiveness. With todays hollow point ammunition I see little difference in flesh and bone ballistics. The Super may open up a hollow point .007" larger than a 9x19mm, but does it matter? I doubt it. In a hospital emergency room, they say there's little difference in a .45 hollow point wound and a 9mm, so I doubt there's much between a Super and a 9mm. The Super may have an advantage in hard target penetration, (body armor, automobile body) over the 9mm or .45ACP, but there's always the 10mm, .41Magnum, .44Magnum and the list goes on, all the way to .50BMG that will defeat hard targets even better.


38 Super vs 9mm

Inevitably there is a comparison between the 38 Super and the 9mm Luger. The Super has a clear advantage, though it is not a huge advantage. The Super propels a 130 grain bullet about 25 fps faster than the 9mm propels a 115 grain bullet. That translates into a roughly 60 ft. lbs. M.E. advantage (about 15%) for the 38 Super. Whether that difference is meaningful or not is a matter of opinion, with 38 Super lovers voting Yes, and 9mm lovers voting No. Like many things in life, we view things in a light that favors our preference. Still, the math places the 38 Super ahead of the 9mm.
9mm +P loads do approach the Super’s power level. But the 9mm +P is loaded to higher pressures than the 38 Super. The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the standard 9mm Luger is 35,000 psi. The 9mm Luger +P maximum is 38,500 psi. The 38 Super SAAMI maximum average pressure is 36,500. Some of you readers are protesting because today’s 38 Super has the designation of 38 Super +P. That’s right. But remember that the +P name designation was added in 1974 solely to distinguish it from the old 38 Automatic, not because the Super was suddenly loaded to higher pressures in 1974. It was a “bureaucratic” name change only, not an actual change in pressure. So, in fact, the 38 Super +P is still the standard pressure 38 Super just as it was when created back in 1929. If the 38 Super was loaded to an increased (real) +P pressure designation it would be much higher than the 9mm +P. For example, the +P designation added 3,500 psi onto the standard 9mm SAAMI maximum. Doing the same to the 38 Super would result in a SAAMI maximum average pressure of 40,000 psi. That would boost velocity and power significantly, well beyond the 9mm +P, and even beyond the 9mm +P+.
The ballistics of 9mm +P+ ammunition are in line with, and slightly exceed, the ballistics of the standard factory 38 Super (Table 3). Winchester’s 127 grain Ranger +P+ produces 441 ft. lbs. M.E. Remington’s 115 JHP +P+ produces 438 ft. lbs. M.E. Remember that the 38 Super’s standard 130 grain FMJ produces 426 ft. lbs. M.E. Higher pressure loads (real +P or +P+ pressures) in the Super would easily surpass 500 ft. lbs. M.E. and would be close to the 9X23 Winchester. By the way, the 9X23 can be loaded to at least 46,000 psi (Winchester’s 15^th Edition Reloader’s Manual) which explains why it has such impressive performance and makes it one of the highest pressure handgun cartridges around.
Fortunately there is an example of ammo loaded by the same company to maximize the potential of both of these cartridges. CORBON loads high performance ammo for the 38 Super and the 9mm Luger. When comparing these loads the 38 Super still has a lead over the 9mm. CORBON’s 9mm +P loads peak at 482 ft. lbs. M.E. But their loads for the 38 Super reaches nearly 520 ft. lbs. M.E.
However, as COL. (Dr.) Tom Haggarty pointed out, the velocity figures for these cartridges are from different length barrels. The loads at CORBON (and most other manufacturers) show that the 9mm is clocked from a 4 inch barrel, and the 38 Super from a 5 inch barrel. A longer test barrel for the 9mm would increase the velocity. The usual rule of thumb is that an additional inch of barrel length adds roughly 50 fps (depending on a variety of factors). This would push the CORBON 9mm +P velocity for a given bullet weight to within 25 fps of the equivalent 38 Super round, making the difference between them very small.
One critical feature will always give the edge to the 38 Super. The 38 Super’s longer case, and therefore greater case volume, means higher velocity for a given bullet weight when both cases are loaded to the same pressures.

Table 3: 38 Super vs 9mm Luger

Cartridge	Manufacturer	Bullet Weight*	Published Velocity†	Muzzle Energy††
9mm Luger	Generic	115 FMJ	1190	362
9mm Luger +P	Remington	115 JHP	1250	399
9mm Luger +P+	Remington	115 JHP	1310	438
9mm Luger +P+	Winchester	127 JHP	1250	441
9mm Luger +P	Cor-Bon	100 Pow'Rball	1475	482
9mm Luger +P	Cor-Bon	115 DPX HP	1275	415
9mm Luger +P	Cor-Bon	115 JHP	1350	466
9mm Luger +P	Cor-Bon	125 JHP	1250	434
38 Super+P	Generic	130 FMJ	1215	426
38 Super+P	Cor-Bon	100 Pow'Rball	1525	516
38 Super+P	Cor-Bon	115 JHP	1425	519
38 Super+P	Cor-Bon	125 JHP	1325	487
38 Super+P	Cor-Bon	125 DPX HP	1350	506
9X23 Winchester	Winchester	125 STHP	1450	583

DPX HP = all copper Barnes X Bullet. FMJ = Full Metal Jacket. JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point. STHP = Silver Tip Hollow Point. * Weight in grains. † Velocity in feet per second. Velocity is usually measured from a 4 inch barrel for 9mm Luger, and 5 inch barrel for 38 Super. †† Muzzle Energy in Foot Pounds and calculated as: Bullet Weight times Velocity times Velocity divided by 450436.

Bottom line, if I wanted a mid size cartridge on a 1911 platform to hand load and play with I'd go with the Super and do it with a ramped barrel to milk out every last bit of performance from it. Other than that, I'd probably go with the 9mm and take advantage of ammo cost and availability.

[slughammer]

hp246 it will be a handload only target with the occasional carry. I just don't leave the house much anymore with my back issues.

If your back issues cause problems picking up brass I'd get a 9mm and plan on letting the brass lay. (or maybe just one more revolver!)

[Pinsnscrews]

Moot point at this time, someone else bought it out from under me before I could get to the store to pick either of them up. Lot of good information and I appreciate everyone who stepped forward.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta food for thought throughout this thread. One idea that occurred to me.......for a time I ran both 308 Winchester and 30-06 bolt rifles, and a few 308 gas guns as well. I opted out of the 308 about 15 years ago, because of the increased performance possible with the 30-06 with heavier-weight bullets in the bolters. The -'06's longer neck is a small "plus" for castings as well.

This diametrically opposed to my preferences in 35 caliber self-loaders, though (9mm vs. 38 Super). Consistency is indeed the last refuge of the unimaginative.

[cpaspr]

I've never hand-loaded for the 9x19mm simply because ammo is so cheap! Really, I recently saw 9x19mm on sale somewhere for right around $300.00 a 1,000! At that price...I ain't reloadi'n it!

Not counting the value of my time nor electricity, I can reload 1000 rounds of 9mm for less than $70. That's with a 120gr cast bullet, figuring lead at $1/lb, Bullseye powder at $25/lb and primers at $35/thousand. That's really a replacement cost value. My lead was actually free, and I got my powder and primers for a bit less. I'm actually loading for $46.60/thousand. I'll stick to reloading. Since I already have everything and don't have to buy more components, from my wife's perspective, I reload for free!

[charlie b]

Lotta food for thought throughout this thread. One idea that occurred to me.......for a time I ran both 308 Winchester and 30-06 bolt rifles, and a few 308 gas guns as well. I opted out of the 308 about 15 years ago, because of the increased performance possible with the 30-06 with heavier-weight bullets in the bolters. The -'06's longer neck is a small "plus" for castings as well.

This diametrically opposed to my preferences in 35 caliber self-loaders, though (9mm vs. 38 Super). Consistency is indeed the last refuge of the unimaginative.

Funny cause I am about to put a .308 barrel on my Garand because I don't deviate much from the factory load, so, .308 and the availability of NATO ammo is a bonus for me.

If it was just logistics and not the platform I'd pick a 9mm over .38 super. And it would not be a 1911 in 9mm. If I am using a 1911 it is in .45ACP, .38 super or 10mm. If I get a 9mm it will be in a gun designed around the shorter cartridge. I'd probably opt for a High Power or one of the newer guns with high cap mags.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Not counting the value of my time nor electricity, I can reload 1000 rounds of 9mm for less than $70. That's with a 120gr cast bullet, figuring lead at $1/lb, Bullseye powder at $25/lb and primers at $35/thousand. That's really a replacement cost value. My lead was actually free, and I got my powder and primers for a bit less. I'm actually loading for $46.60/thousand. I'll stick to reloading. Since I already have everything and don't have to buy more components, from my wife's perspective, I reload for free!

I do like your wife's perspective!

[9.3X62AL]

Charlie B--

The 1911-series and the Beretta 92-series pistols are kinda big for the 9mm caliber, for certain.

But the two most accurate 9mm pistols I have ever fired were one each of these two platforms--and on the same day. One was a stock-looking but much-refined 92FS--it literally placed factory W-W 147 grain JHPs one on top of the other at 25 yards. The 20-round composite target had a ragged cavity just over 2" across centered on the X-ring of an NRA pistol bull. I didn't think a 9mm could do such things.

Soon thereafter, I got the chance to run a box-stock and near-new Springfield Loaded 1911A1 in 9mm. Same ammo--20 rounds at 25 yards made a ragged 2-1/4" cavern, with one called flyer out about an inch left. This pistol left a lasting impression upon me, and only the scarcity of replacement OEM magazines has kept me from snagging one of my own.

[robertbank]

Al the Wilson 9MM 10rd mags are excellent. Ran well in my STI Trojan and Norinco NP-29 (a 1911). I'm not sure I would go with Springfield necessarily, but if that is what floats your boat.

My CZ 75 Shadowline to date has been my most accurate 9MM, although the Mke 25 Sig 226 plunks the bullets where the sights are pointing, which sometimes reflects where I am aiming.

Take Care

Bob