Opinions wanted on 45-70 loads

[Jeffery8mm]

Finally got to shoot the 45-70 today. Shots were at 50 yds for load development purposes Boy it was hot here in Mississippi today!!!
Ok, heres the scoop...

45-70 NEF Handi Rifle
330gr Lyman hp 457122 Shot as cast .4595 to .460
Lars 2500+ pan lubed {which by the way works GREAT!!}
cci 200 primers
IMR 3031 and IMR4064

Here goes...
The 3031 did not shoot worth a hoot in my NEF. Groups were the size of a softball at 50 yds.
Started out with 45gr of 3031. av vel was 1521 with a sd of 24.3
Then went to 46gr of 3031 av vel was 1580 with a sd of 19.8
48 gr gave an av vel of 1665 sd of 22.0
I am fairly new to a chrony so I will ask now, how low is "good" on the sd

The 4064 gave ALOT better accuracy with some having 4 shots in one hole and 1 flier I assume due to the fact that I was running a bore snake inbetween each series of shots[5] therefore creating a clean barrel effect??

44 gr of 4064 gave the best group with an av vel of 1392 and a sd of 35.5
45gr of 4064 gave a great group also with an av vel of 1453 and a sd of 23.3
46 gr I had a flier and knew it was gonna happen as soon as I pulled the trigger. So that messed up a great looking group. will tr\ry that load again!!
46 gr gave an av vel of 1453 with a sd of 15.0.

Well there it is for what its worth. Any opinions or suggestions are welcome. These are the FIRST cast rifle bullets that I have shot that I cast and loaded!!! I be Hooked woohoo
BY BY j word bullets

On another note I did shoot some unique with this bullet. Seems like it liked the LOWER loads, as in 15 gr down to 13. From 16 to 19 the groups opened up alot.
Thanks for looking
Jeff

[kjg]

To me it seems like a good deal, I my self like 2400 with my nef and 405 lee hollow pointed bullets and liqiud alox, my other favorite load wich my nef seems to favor is 13 grains unique, and same 405 grain hollow point, and NOW filler don't like the idea but some folks do, the funny thing is anyone who shoots this rifle, benched of off hand gets the same groups roughly 1" or slightly larger, now that is srange. kjg

[Echo]

As an old Statistics professor I would like to believe that the SD was an important measure in load development - but I have seen too many cases where best groups do NOT coincide with minimum sd. It doesn't appear that the sd measure is important in load development (dang it!) - the important measure is group size. IMHO.

[Doc Highwall]

Low extreme spread and SD are important at long range. At 1000yds the goal is 20fps extreme spread or less, but with accuracy, also enough muzzle velocity to keep the bullet super sonic at 1000yds. You are right in that low SD's do not always coincide with the barrel vibrations. Only the ladder system of loading takes barrel vibrations in to consideration at the shooting distance.

[Larry Gibson]

Depending on the alloy, 1500 - 1600 fps is the break over point on accuracy with plain base cast bullets. The 3031 powder probably would do well down around 35 - 42 gr. The 4064 did well because it is a good medium powder for the 45-70 (prefer 4895 myself) and your velocity was in the high 1300s to mid 1400s....just right for plain base cast bullets in the 45-70.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

I agree with Larry regarding PB and vol. My pet loads for 45-70 have always centered around 2400 with all weights of plain based cast. I start around 22 gr. and with about 1 gr dacron as recommended by Lyman. Have gone from 340 gr to 535 gr blts and most of my loads chrono under 1500. If I need more than that for anything in the lower 48 think I would consider a condom-----naw, i'm to cheap, and my cast shoot just fine.
1Shirt!

[Jeffery8mm]

Thanks guys. I already see that pushing plain base too fast is not good for accuracy. I guess I just cant seem to get over the thought that a bullet "needs" to travel at supersonic speed to preform!! I think I am going to work with the 4064 some more. I just really have a thing for that powder!!!! I seems to work in just about anuthing that I happen to load for. There is just not much data for 4064 with cast boolits. I may go with Larry's suggestion and drop the 3031 back to around 40gr. and see what happens.
Amen to easy ed on the group being important. I know we should pay attention to the numbers for pressure reasons maybe, but sometimes I think the chrony gets in the way of having fun!!!


Thanks
Jeff

[Nardoo]

28 gns of H4198 under a 330 to 450 gn cast bullet will give you around 1250 fps and, with a bit of adjusting of bullet hardness, 1/2" groups at 50 yds. My Sharps will do even better. This will be nicer to shoot than the quicker loads and mostly kill just as well.

Having said that, my Ruger #1 will shoot the same bullets at 1900 fps into 1 MOA using 54 gns of BLC(2) or 52 gns of H4895. This is not a gentle load and certaily not suitable for your handi-rifle.



Nardoo

[Jeffery8mm]

If I get an accurate load that shoots in the 1250to 1400 fps, is this gonna be an adequate Ms deer stopper? [dumb question, i know]. What abouts some thoughts on trajectory. Say a hundred yard zero or even 1'' high at 100? Will I still have a 150yd load?? As you can tell, I have been raised up in 30 cal rifles and it will take some getting used to the big slow bullet loads
Thanks

Jeff

[Larry Gibson]

Jeff

You don't say what bullet. There are numerous things that effect trajectory; BC, velocity, sight height above bore, etc. However with a "typical" FP cast bullet of 350-450 gr at 1400 fps if zeroed at 100 yards the center of the group will hit about 7-8" low at 150 yards and about 22-24" low at 200 yards. I zero my 45-70s 3-4" high at 100 which puts them "on" at 150 yards and about 12-14" low at 200 yards. Again it depends mostly on velocity, BC and sight height above bore. The only way to know is to zero at 150 yards then shoot at 50, 100 and 200 yards. That's the best way to do it because then you'll really know and won't be guessing.

Larry Gibson

[Jeffery8mm]

Thanks Larry, good info. This load will most likely be with the Lyman 330gr HP. Maybe a 405gr Lee.
Jeff

[38-55]

Jeff,
I use lymans 457122 in my handi-rifle for deer. I back it with 27 gns of accurate 5744.. I've never lost a deer with that load. Never found a bullet either as it's penetration is always through and through. I've killed deer with light loads to.. 10 gns of unique is a killer to.. BTW I'm in maryland and we hunt tight.. 100 yds is a long shot. Most shots are at 'knife fighting' distance.
Oh and I just cast the bullets out of WW.. I don't do anything special except lube and load.
Hope this helps out
Calvin
PS I've shot well over twenty deer with this bullet..

[goatboy_k]

what velocity are you getting and are you air-cooling your ww or water dropping. Just wondering because i would like to hunt with this bullet out of my guide gun this year and im trying to decide how fast i need to push it. My current load is about 1900 fps using 45 gn of H4198 using water dropped ww. And im thinking that that might be a little fast??? Something a little more shootable would be good if i can still get good results, this will be my first season using the big bore.

should i slow it down and air cool the ww??

kurt

[NickSS]

I used 42 gr of 3031 and a lyman 457125 400 gr slug cast from range scrap to shoot several deer with a ruger #3 carbine. Results were dead deer, complete penetration and three shot groups that went into one inch at 100 yards with a 3X scope. I later went to a flat point 300 gr slug to reduce recoil and increase velocity and use it for years. This load was the Lyman 300 gr fp with 27 gr of IMR 4198. Accuracy was around 1.5 inches at 100 yardsbut it killed quicker and still went clean through deer. The deer was west coast black tails and one mule deer. Ranges were from 30 to 120 yards.

[goatboy_k]

thanks, i'll think i'll back mine off and the deer will be just as dead