So what the hell happened here?!!!

[AlaskaMike]

I looked at the next round in the magazine and it was pushed back below the rim of the brass!

Looks like you just confirmed the problem!

Short, fat cartridges like .45 ACP are extremely susceptible to high pressure increases with deeper seating of the bullet. The percentage of case volume consumed as the bullet seats deeper is much more than a long, narrow cartridge like the .357 mag for example. For the bullet you're using, it seems like the most common OALs are between 1.23" and 1.25". I did an experiment using Lasercast 200 grain SWCs with 5.8 grains of 231, dropping the OAL from 1.26" to 1.23" to try to see if I could reduce powder fouling by increasing pressure a bit. 14 rounds per string, with the average velocities below, out of my Sig P220. What was interesting to me was that velocity didn't uniformly increase, but SD decreased uniformly.


OAL Vel. SD
1.26" 842 19
1.24" 856 12
1.23" 846 8


Note that Titegroup burns much faster than 231, which would significantly raise the risk of an experiment such as this.

At the risk of getting flamed, I'll admit that I really don't have any problem with using range pickup brass in .45 ACP. I *do* inspect it, and have discarded cases in the past because things like deep scratches, cracks developing in the case mouth, etc. However, it's probably good for a new reloader to use new, or known once-fired brass (like buy new ammo, shoot it yourself and then reload those cases).

Mike

[Sig shooter]

Like others have posted , leave more lead exposed at case mouth . That crimp rolls over on the bullet holding it in ( you need a tapered crimp). Throw out cases with enlarged case heads ( check the brass in loaded round gauge " backwards " )

[KCSO]

I have seen this several times...
First off the 1911's do not have a fully supported chamber and some makers in an attempt to get better feeding make the problem worse with their modifications to the feed ramp. Then you use fast burning powder in a small case and if that bullet moves any as it slams up the ramp and into the chamber you have excess pressure. Now add to that that most brass fired in a Glock is unfit to reload (look at it it's already bulged) and if you piick up a case that is already stressed and reload it and the original bulge is in the wrong spot... KABOOM.

The cure is to use a GOOD taper crimp on your reloads and be very picky about what you reload. If the brass has a noticable bulge when you piick it up it is scrap brass, no exceptions. Unless you like KABOOM's.

[JIMinPHX]

At the risk of getting flamed, I'll admit that I really don't have any problem with using range pickup brass in .45 ACP. I *do* inspect it, and have discarded cases in the past because things like deep scratches, cracks developing in the case mouth, etc. However, it's probably good for a new reloader to use new, or known once-fired brass (like buy new ammo, shoot it yourself and then reload those cases).

Mike

No flames here. About half the brass I have is range pick up. I've been using it happily for over 20 years with no problems. Like you, I do inspect what I pick up & trash the junkers.

[JIMinPHX]

First off the 1911's do not have a fully supported chamber and some makers in an attempt to get better feeding make the problem worse with their modifications to the feed ramp.

I agree that improper ramping is a common problem. The 1911 is spec'd for a maximum case head exposure of .090". Improper headspacing, excessive ramp relief & failure to go fully into battery will cause this number to be exceeded. If there is not evidence of this blown case having been caused by a single extra-hot round, then the gun needs to be checked by a qualified pistolsmith. There is probably something wrong with it.

[35remington]

EasyEd:

"The .45ACP does NOT headspace on the case, even in the case of new ammo."

Yep, it does. Please read this entire post.

Take a factory round, ball or hollowpoint. Seat the round. Measure the headspace.

Now pull the bullet and measure the headspace, case only.

No change.

Some 1911's have short throats; some have long throats. On jacketed factory rounds, the bullet bearing surface forward of the case must clear the leade, no matter how short it is. Example: My Ruger P97, which has a throat even shorter than 1911's. Cast bullet that feed thru 1911's get stuck well before battery on this gun, due to the larger diameter forward shoulder of the bullet and early rifling contact. Very, very little shoulder can be exposed and still chamber. All jacketed factory loads (haven't tried target SWC's in 185 grain weight) seat fine. And headspace on the case mouth.

Why?

Not much full diameter bearing surface forward of the case mouth. This is done deliberately to clear all throat/leade types.

Try it for yourself and be educated.

How to:

Seat jacketed bullet well out; examples for me immediately at hand being 230 ball, 230 FMJ FP Hornady, 230 Hornady XTP, 185 XTP, Sierra 230 HP, Remington Golden Saber, and Winchester 230 hollowpoint. These have to have the bullet seated well out, longer by many thousandths than factory ammo, to headspace on the bullet. Even in my short throat Ruger, and same applies to my 1911's. The Golden Sabers are a gimme, because they have a reduced diameter forward section, but try it with other hollowpoint types, or whatever. Start considerably longer than factory, and seat deeper a bit at a time, until the round chambers flush with the hood (make sure to turn in the mouth flare for proper chambering). Now measure overall length, which is still longer than factory.

Even given front to back chamber tolerances, and flush with the hood as opposed to somewhat below it regarding case fit, a bullet would have to be seated well out, much longer than the factories load, to routinely headspace on the bullet.

These barrels I tried this in were still somewhat dirty from shooting cast bullet loads, so this is representative of actual conditions.

230 ball has to be seated almost ridiculously long to headspace on the bullet, at 1.290." Knock off thirty thousandths to 1.260" as most factory ammo is loaded to and it's pretty durn clear that the round is not headspacing on the rifling. Same with the 230 FJM FP and the hollowpoints, which have squarer shoulders and would "seem" to be more likely to headspace on the bullet. Factory rounds are loaded a full twenty five to forty thousandths shorter than is required to headspace on the bullet, depending upon bullet type and the chamber we're loading the round in. The Winchester HP will headspace on the rifling at 1.270", forty to fifty thousandths longer than they load it. The Hornady XTP's headspace on the rifling at 1.235 - 1.240", and Hornady recommends 1.200" in its loading manual (look it up). I haven't found any factory loaded XTP to exceed 1.220" - most are between 1.210 and 1.215 in the boxes I've purchased, and I've a few leftover on hand. Given any halfway normal chamber and even below flush with the hood headspacing, the case mouth will headspace before the bullet does in jacketed factory loads. Like I said, I dunno about 185 target SWC's.

Don't take somebody's word for it. Try it yourself, and be informed. Factory jacketed ammo seating depth is designed to clear any leade that is present, no matter how short it may be. They have to do it this way or they'd receive complaints about functionality.

And update your (expert) friends. They obviously haven't tried it themselves to resolve the issue, or they wouldn't say what they've asserted to be true.

Like I said, try it. Don't take someone else's word for it. They might be wrong.

On edit:

Incidentally, the fact that your cases are .005" shorter than your chamber doesn't mean the cases are headspacing on the bullet. The case is driven forward the five thousandths by the firing pin until the case mouth contacts the stop shoulder. A cartridge would have to be overlong by considerably more than five thousandths - as I have just proved - for the bullet to headspace the round. Backing the bullet off 5 thousandths from the rifling means case and bullet headspace theoretically at the same time. Since the bullet is much further back than that in jacketed factory loads (remember my 25 to 50 thou), you will see that even short cases headspace on the case mouth. The case mouth needs to go five thousandths to hit the chamber stop shoulder - but the bullet needs to go another 20 to 40 thousandths or more forward to headspace on the rifling.

The extractor doesn't control headspacing in the 1911 either. A case would have to be very radically short for the extractor to come into play. In factory loads, the extractor headspaces nothing. The "headspacing extractor" myth got killed awhile back. It takes some time to get everyone informed.

If I've got you thinking and getting out the loading equipment, that was my intention.

[The Dove]

Why can't I get the pictures????????????????

The Dove

[Tumtatty]

Not too much left to add here… The likely causes have been pretty well covered. My bet is on one of three things. It could be a hot powder charge, a failure to go fully into battery before firing or a feed ramp that was over-chamfered to facilitate better feeding. I don’t think that looks like over-used brass, although if it were a balloon head case (very rare these days) that could also be the problem. Since you are not seeing this problem on a regular basis, I’m going to cross off the over-chamfering possibility from my list too. If that was the case, you would be seeing bulged brass more often. If it was an overcharge, you would also see signs of high pressure on the rear of the case. If they are not there, then you were probably not fully in battery when the gun fired & the gun itself needs to be looked at by a qualified pistolsmith. The following pictures are from an overcharged round. Note the rear of the case & how it flowed into the recess near the extractor in the gun. This case didn't let go, but it was a half a heartbeat away from bursting. Both these pieces of brass were fired from the same gun the same day.

Hi Jim

Your pics have a raised portion on the bottom of the case. If you look closely at my pics you will see the same thing. There is a raised portion on the "a" of the word "auto." Is that a sign of an overpowered charge?

[Tumtatty]

The cure is to use a GOOD taper crimp on your reloads and be very picky about what you reload. If the brass has a noticable bulge when you piick it up it is scrap brass, no exceptions. Unless you like KABOOM's.

I have the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. On the Midway USA sight under the Lee Taper Crimp Die it reads that the taper crimp die "is hardened steel designed to overcome crimp problems caused by poor die design. These dies offer little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp. Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove (cannelure)."

They seem to think that a taper crimp is already place on the case by their newer dies. Is this true? Do I scrap the Factory Crimp die? Is any taper crimp die going to do the trick?

[Tumtatty]

You said you're using a Lee factory crimp; I recommend using a taper crimp, or Lee Carbide Factory crimp die and adjusting the die to size cases to no larger than 0.471" at the case mouth. Measure your loads to see what the diameter is at the case mouth... too large and they won't chamber completely, they'll vary with the thickness of the brass in different brands. All your loads should fall into and out of the chamber. Remove the barrel and drop your loads into the chamber... the case should drop completely into the chamber and the rim should be flush or below the hood; then see if they fall out when you tip the barrel up... they should.

Boomer

I sized these boolits to .452. When I load them into the cases the diameter of the loaded case is .472.5 - 4.74. Do I need to get a .451 sizer instead of the .452? None of cases falls out of the chamber unless I tap it gently.

cases are being resized to .467

[exile]

I will approach this cautiously because I am not an expert. Having said that I reload for Glock pistols in 9mm and .357 Sig. The one thing I will not do is reload for .40 S &W for use in Glock pistols, at least not with a factory barrel. My point is that maybe one of those range pickups was fired out of a Glock. Glock factory barrels seem to have a problem in .45 ACP just like in 40 S &W. That case bulge from a "less supported chamber" is ugly. Also, I have used CCI primers for several years with no problems, probably because I use a single-stage press and a Lee hand primer. Like I said, pretty new at this but those are my thoughts.

[docone31]

With the four die set, do not use the crimp die. The third die in the set will taper the case for .45ACP. I used mine and saw the same thing. I did use the crimp die, but, I left it pretty much "loose" on the shell. All it does is round a little, rather than crimp. Next time I load I will not use the die.
I did not use the crimp die on my 9mm set.

[Echo]

Those friends have gone to their reward.

Jim Clark was a pistolsmith in Shreveport LA when I was stationed @ Barksdale AFB in the early '60's. Pistol shooters know the name Jim Clark. His guns were shot by champions. He was a friend that had to build another room on his house to hold his trophies, and his guns are still in demand. His son has continued the tradition. Go to http://www.bullseyepistol.com/clark.htm to find out more about Jim Clark.

Bob Day was the NCOIC of the Custom Gun Shop @ Lackland AFB. He supervised the accurizing of USAF Professional Grade weapons, and invented the Day 30-X conversion for 1911's, making them into competitive .22's. The first time I shot mine I shot a 298 match course. The next time (a couple of days later) I set a new USAF record that still stands. Bob knew pistols. His guns won several National Championships.

Dick Shockey was a pistolsmith living in El Reno OK, west of OKC, when I was stationed @ Tinker AFB. He did some work for me, and even loaned me a gun to shoot in The All-AF matches. Pistol shooters knew the name Dick Shockey, and Shockey pistols were shot by champions.

Lew Willing was a smith @ Lackland that only USAF folks knew. He worked for Bob, and built my wad gun that still shoots 2 1/2" groups @ 50 yards.

These guys weren't across-the-street neighbors, or club members. They were professionals who knew more about pistols than the average bear, and they all told me that the bullets in a .45ACP should be seated out to contact the rifling, as the case is shorter than the chamber, and inertia keeps the round from moving forward when struck by the firing pin. I believe they knew whereof they spoke.

No flaming here, just enlightenment regarding my 'friends'.

[686]

I HAD a 45 acp rd go off bedore it was full in the chamber. the fireing pin had gotter dirty and stuck out. when i chambered the rd,, band. it was pointed in a safe direction. i almost did it again then saw what was wrong. light loads and no case rupture. the gun is clean now.

[Boomer Mikey]

I sized these boolits to .452. When I load them into the cases the diameter of the loaded case is .472.5 - 4.74. Do I need to get a .451 sizer instead of the .452? None of cases falls out of the chamber unless I tap it gently.

cases are being resized to .467

What I'm talking about here is the diameter of your loaded ammo; see the thumbnail below.

Your picture of the loaded round shows a heavy crimp on the case mouth, IMO too heavy. It may be that the case is bulging from that heavy crimp... the idea here is to remove the belling of the case mouth leaving the case flat against the side of the bullet with a slight taper and the inside edge of the case mouth slightly engraving the bullet to prevent setback during chambering. When using the taper crimp die you won't feel the case fold into the bullet... just some sliding friction.

Adjust the depth of the die to produce a finished round diameter of 0.473" maximum. Your 0.452" boolits should be fine. If you don't need to push the loaded round into the chamber you're probably OK, but you could turn the crimp die down a little more to produce no larger than a 0.473" diameter loaded round and see if they fall out. The throated chamber will also hold onto the driving band of the bullet when chambered... a good thing.

What Lee is saying is that their new die sets bullet seater die includes a taper crimp.

The Lee Carbide factory crimp die was designed to taper crimp and resize loaded ammo to SAAMI specifications. There have been positive comments from Lee die set users having chambering problems in that this die resolves all issues by ironing out all imperfections in loaded ammo to fit SAAMI chambers. This die is included in Lee's Deluxe Carbide 4 die set. If you have issues with loaded rounds that fail to chamber you can resize the loaded rounds with this die to produce serviceable rounds.

I personally don't use Lee Dies so I can't comment about them; many shooters use them with great success.

I think you're on the right track to producing quality reloaded ammo without unexpected issues and respect for safe practices.

Boomer

[yondering]

I'm not sure why some keep insisting that this round fired out of battery. A lot of 1911 barrels are unsupported at the feed ramp, and hot loads will show this. Here's a picture of a very hot load fired in my Springfield 1911, with the factory barrel. This load was a commercial cast 255gr SWC over 8gr Unique (not intentional).
You can clearly see the unsupported area of the chamber, which is very similar to the one shown in the first post of this thread. Just a little more pressure, and it would have blown just like that too.
You can also see the imprints on the case head from the extractor cutout, and the ejector. (Contrary to what the guy on the AR forum said, these same marks are visible on the case pictured in the first post.)

This round was fired with the gun fully locked into battery, and in a clean gun. Simple overpressure, no gun malfunction at all.







I think the case in the first post could have ruptured either from a deap seated bullet, or an overcharge resulting from a powder bridge. We probably can't know for sure, but both situations can be cured by proper die setup and careful reloading.

[docone31]

Yondering, I agree. I will tell you what though, I have learned a lot here. I have had malfunctions, firing out of battery on my old Thompson semi auto, and various worn out .22lr autoloaders, to case head seperation, primer pocket signatures of all sorts.
It is good to see, and read all of this.
Personally, I have found a system that works for me. When I cast and load, I use the lowest charge of the next higher boolitt on the load sheet. Everything goes how, and where I want it to. My wife and myself enjoy going to the range, meeting folks, shooting at lots of paper, and just being part of the experience.
Back in the '80's, I was very competitive. I trickled my charges, weighed everything, wind flags, loads for a certain temperature.
I will post on this forum, and my wife will occasionally read it. I get to show her what can happen, and she gets to read the posts. When I tell her, she falls asleep.
I have had primer pockets flow into the firing pin shaft hole, case heads that had the machineing patterns imprinted on them, cases that ended up paper thin, Cracks, leading like no tomorrow.
All you folks out there, bring it on!!! I read it, and so does my wife. I never accomplished paper patching before I joined this forum, and with this forum my wife got to see me do it, and a few herself. Then we go to shoot it and it works.
Every part of this forum is really helping me help my wife understand this aspect of it. She kinda wants to shoot IPSC and I tell her she needs to know.
You folks really help a lot.

[JIMinPHX]

Hi Jim

Your pics have a raised portion on the bottom of the case. If you look closely at my pics you will see the same thing. There is a raised portion on the "a" of the word "auto." Is that a sign of an overpowered charge?

Yes, that would be an indication that you had an overpressure charge in the cartridge. I did not notice the blip in your picture before, but I do see it now. If you compare two different pieces of brass that were fired from the same gun & they look very different, that is a sign of a single bad round.

Overpressure can be caused by too much powder (as the one in my picture was), the wrong powder, a boolit that is seated too deep in the brass, a constriction in the barrel or chamber, the wrong primer, the wrong boolit, or a fleck of crud stuck on the outside of the brass near the mouth. There are other possible causes too, these are just the ones that are on my hit list.

Regards,
Jim

[TAWILDCATT]

I have my own ideas on this.however I will give my take.never had aa problem because I load light for accuracy and dont need to load heavy.my expert was Dinnan of conn. who recomended the swc be out about 1/32 and roll crimp on front band.I use 3.6 gr of 700X and 200 gr bullet.my instuctions was the bullet is out and hits the rifling as the slide closes.I too was in compitition but am not more than better than avarage.my cases are 30+ yrs old. I dont use taper crimp.I use a lee 1000 but prime with lee hand primer.I have been shooting 45 since 1960.

[Larry Gibson]

I've seen this quite a few times. There are three causes. Firing out of battery, weakened cases at the web and an over charge.

From what you post and the pictures I'd say it was an over charge. The case looks as if it was fully supported in the chamber and you say it was still in the chamber with you having difficulty working the slide to eject it. The case rupture is at the ramp. If it had fired out of battery the case would have been ejected. As it was there was too much preesure for the case to release its grip on the chamber wall and it failed to function. The "soot" that was blown back is what vented from the rupture. It also appears the primer pocket is "blown". That is a sure indicater of an overcharge.

What type of press and loading technique did you use?

Larry Gibson