.38-55 Chambering Problem

[FromTheWoods]

(It has been discussed before, but I can't find it.)

My "new" 1898 Winchester '94 .38-55 doesn't like the cartridge I've built for it--seems the first 3/8ths inch of the case is rubbing against the wall of the chamber.

Bore is .381.
Starline long brass.
240 grain, .382 Cast, by Rim Rock Bullets.

I've read that sometimes a bullet that is this large will expand the neck of the case sufficiently to cause it to stick in the chamber.

Should I back off to a .381 or .380 bullet?
Would a Lee Factory Crimp die take care of the problem?

I'm planning on using H4895, so if you have suggestions regarding grains of powder, I'm open to them.

[oneokie]

Welcome to the world of 38-55 itis. Suggest you try a .381" boolit and see if the problem persists. Accuracy will probably suffer if you can chamber a round with the .381" boolit.

The Lee Factory Crimp die will not cure the problem.

Something to try; measure the OD of one of the rounds with the .382" boolit. By removing the decapping assembly from the sizing die, you can lube the case and run the assembled round back in the sizing die to reduce the size. Do a little at a time, checking for ease of chambering. When you are able to chamber the round, measure the OD at the case mouth again. This will give you a estimate of the chamber diameter and by subtracting the smaller diameter you will have an idea of how large a boolit you will be able to use without modifiying the chamber.

More than likely, the only way you will be able to get good accuracy from your 94 will be to have the chamber opened up so as to accept a cartridge with the large boolit.

[KirkD]

I have an original Winchester 1894 38-55 with an oversize groove diameter of .381. I did three things that improved the accuracy to the point where I get 5-shot groups at 100 yards of around 2".

1. I used soft cast bullets sized to .379 that seem to bump right up to fill the bore (8 BHN).
2. I started using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. That did help in my case, allowing me to chamber bullets up to .381 without any problems. Without the Lee FCD, I was limited to .379.
3. I use toilet paper filler, which acts like a poor man's gas check
4. I use medium speed powders like 5744 and SR4759 to help bump up the undersize bullet.

[hyoder]

Bought a '94 in 38-55 just before they stopped building them. Had a .3815 groove diameter and a minimum sized chamber. No way to chamber a .382-.383 boolit, actually nothing over .378. Wouldn't shoot anything that would chamber. I finally borrowed a chamber reamer that a friend had to work on a Marlin and a Winchaster that both had the same problem. Tried everything I could think or and still was unable to get it to shoot. I got mad and had the barrel lined with a .375 liner and chambered chamberd to handle up to .377 boolits and now it shoots just fine.

[boommer]

I also have a old winnie 38-55 1901 vintage and .379 slug soft at 9-10 BHN bumps up fine with 18 grs 5744 at 1375 fps out of a 24 inch barrel.The rifle prints great groups a little over a inch at 50 and at 100 right at 2inch on my good days! SHE is a shooter cant get that out of my other winnies new or old. The lee factory crimp die is nice to have but you can cheat by crimping your cartridge then pulling your pin on the sizing die and running it up in that die just to take the bump out of the roll crimp. I use this method on other 38-55 rifles that 38-55 bores and 375 win chambers because newer rifles have been bastartsized because some moron in the wood pile decided to try re-event the wheel !

[KirkD]

Boomer has the right idea with the soft cast. Stay away from hard cast. I can only chamber bullets about 1 or 2 thou undersize for the groove diameter, yet get 2" groups at 100 yards by using soft cast and 18 grains of 5744.

[charger 1]

Boomer has the right idea with the soft cast. Stay away from hard cast. I can only chamber bullets about 1 or 2 thou undersize for the groove diameter, yet get 2" groups at 100 yards by using soft cast and 18 grains of 5744.

I also agree with the above and secondly would wonder if your brass isnt causing part of the problem. In my experience starline is on the thick side. I got some win tin brass, which although I hate win brass its good for this purpose cause of its thinness,379 air cooled wheel weights, the lee bevel base(which is what I gragged cheap until Ranch Dog has his ready) sits on 28.5 grs of H335 and 6.2 grs of PSB to give fairly heavy compression and 1700 FPS and one hole. Hard bullets were a waste

[JudgeBAC]

Had the same problem with a Marlin cowboy .38-55. After much consternation and trying everything including taking the decapping rod out of the die and running loaded rounds through it, I simply reduced the bullet diameter to .378. Even though this is under groove diameter it shoots really well with four different bullets. I use 3031 powder which has been excellent in this and other cast applications. Shooting undersize bullets seems to defy current logic but it works for me and I dont have to cast the bullets that soft either. Mine are running BHN 13-15. Except for a 300 gr. Saeco, all of the other bullets I shoot are gas check designs. The gas checks are not a problem as I found a dealer who had bought out an old gun shop and I bought about 12 thousand .375 gas checks for $5.00 a box.

[FromTheWoods]

Thanks for the suggestions and your experiences.

I'll try the sizing-die trick first.

I need to order .25-35 cases, so I guess I'll just add a FCD to that order just in case it will help to remedy the problem.

Down the road, I plan to cast my own bullets--BOOLETS. I'm going to try to find someone around here, Redmond OR, who does it. So much easier to learn when you can see the process. Maybe save myself from purchasing unnecessary/poor equipment.

[45nut]

I am just East of you outside of Prineville and would be happy to show you the ropes. Send me a PM with a phone number to discuss.

[FromTheWoods]

Whoa! That is too GOOD!

Thank you!

[McLintock]

When a Winchester '94 in 38-55 jams like you're talking about, it's usually because the rim of the cartridge can't come up through the cartridge guides in time for the round to line up and slip into the chamber; it jams between the top of the chamber and the guides. On early ones like yours, that are made for the original lenght brass like the Starline you're using, it isn't a problem like in the shorter chambered later versions. However, when you stack a .382 bullet and thicker brass, like has been mentioned, it can cause the problem. Either opening up the guides a small amount, like has to be done on many later versions, so the rim can come up earlier, or reducing the overall loaded diameter with a smaller bullet or thinner brass will cure it. If the bore measures .381, then the .382 bullet size you're using is good and maybe it would still shoot good with a .381, if that would reduce diameter enough to make the difference. Also, thinner brass would help, either by neck turning the Starline or finding some Winchester Brass like Buffalo Arms sells. You could also go to slightly shorter brass and probably solve the problem. Ya pays your money and takes your pick of the solutions, but if it was me I'd open up the guides a little and shoot the load you're using now, or shorten the brass a little. I had a '94 made in '97 that had a .381 bore like yours, and using a .381 bullet and Winchester original length brass it fed good.
McLintock

[KCSO]

Had the same problem with an old 94 if you put in a cast slug big enough to shoot well it wouldn't chamber. If you dropped bullet size the accuracy suffered. I finally went with a soft lead bullet sized to 379 and pushed it either with B/P or with Unique. The bullet would then slug up and the gun would shoot reasonably well (4" at 100) I finaly sold the rifle to a collector and he is happy with his wall hanger.

[Skipper]

4-D rents a .400 mouth reamer that fixes this problem for good. $28.00 rental:


http://4-dproducts.com/display.php?g...a8b19fc95d9e38

[MtGun44]

If you are crimping, make certain you aren't slightly OVER crimping.
I had the same problem with my 1898 vintage Win94 in 38-55 and it
turned out to be a bit excessive crimping actually bulging out the case
JUST below the crimp and that was what was keeping it from chambering.
A bit less crimp and suddenly I could chamber a .002" bigger boolit, which
I desperately needed ! This was very subtle and took me a while to
figure out. Careful examination of the 'won't go' cartridges showed a
slight rub mark on the brass just below the crimp . . . . . Dismissed it
after I first saw it, then finally did some measuring and backed off the
crimp. Bingo.

Good luck.

Bill

[charger 1]

MTGun44 is also correct. I think you'll find your problem is a combination of a few small things. Go very light on crimp, try to get some win brass and stay under the .380. I did all of these and things is fine and a one holer. I wouldnt be to quick to brake out reamers

[FromTheWoods]

McLintock--It's not a "jam." The case just behind the crimping groove is rubbing the forwardmost area of the chamber wall.

I did play with the crimp, and still the brass showed the slight rub marks. Knowing how the reloading Gods mess with us, I'll try it again to be certain--start with no crimp and move a bit tighter.

Thank you ALL for your ideas and opinions.

[McLintock]

But it's still the same problem, the rim isn't coming through the guides early enough for the back of the cartridge to come up, level out and go into the chamber without the rub. The "stacked" dimemsions at the front is causing a simultaneous "catch" while the rim is still contacting the guides and the case contacting the top of the chamber after the elevator raises the cartridge at the proper angle for feeding. Reduce the dimensions by using a smaller bullet, thinner brass, shortening the brass, and the rim can come through before the contact; it only takes a thousanth or so of clearance for it to feed smoothly. Messing with the crimp isn't going to do any good unless you're actually bulging the case during reloading and you should be able to measure that with calipers. Load a few with your bullet and measure before crimping and then after and see if the diameter's increased or not where the rub is. If you're only getting a rub, then probably just going to a .381 bullet will do the trick; a thousanth may be all you need. That ".400 Mouth Reamer" is accomplishing the same thing by making the front diameter of the chamber bigger, but it's still not addressing the right cause of the problem; I'm with Charger1 on not using it yet. Lengthening the guide rail openings is the right way to fix it, if you want to continue using the .382 bullet. Actually, a 240 gr bullet is pretty short, if you ever want to start using something like the Lyman 375449 270 gr'er or similar, you'll probably really have problems at that diameter. But, whatever floats your boat, it's your rifle. My current '94 38-55 has no problems, but I opened the guides, but it sure did before I did so. It would actually jam up and lock tight, no feed at all, and with 2.08" cases and a .376 barrel; now it feeds anything I put in it. Good luck.
McLintock

[McLintock]

Here's a picture of a guide rail out of a very early (pre 1900) '94 in 38-55. The round, as it comes out of the mag tube, goes back between the two curved sides on the left; these fit the rim pretty close. When the action reaches it's rearward most position, the elevator pops up and places the round at an angle. As the bolt moves forward, the rim rides along the curved portion till it hits the slanted opening and can move upward, thereby aligning with the chamber. If, for any reason, the front of the cartridge hits the chamber while still at the angle, it will jam or cause the rub you're experiencing. Merely polishing the guide rail can help a lot and moving the rear of that slant back so the rim comes up earlier solves the problem. Or you can work on the front as has been discussed here by attempting to get a combination that will feed with the guides as they are.



The late model '94 commemeratives can be especially bad as they use 30-30 guides and Winchester uses jacketed ammo to test them with (or probably just figured they'd never be shot) and they feed alright at the factory. But when people start using cast bullets and such they have problems.
McLintock

[Oneshot]

I too have one of the last 94's and have the same problem. The bullet hits on ehte top of the chamber and the brass hits on the square shoulder on the bott or the barrel.
I took it to a gunsmith (good one and also an authorized Winchester repair center) we both areed that what it needed was a feed ramp at the bottom of the barrel like on an automatic pistol.
Some 94's came that way. I must be at the proper angle so it will feed and clear the guides. This is currently bing done.