Seating Gas checked bullets past neck?

[birddog1520]

I'm new at casting and shooting cast boolits and need some help with this part. I want to load some of my 180 gn. cast boolits from a C309-180-R Lee mold in a 30-30 but the gas checks go past the shoulder on the case I've read that you should not seat a gas checked bullet past the neck. What I need help with is if I load the bullets without the gas check on what do I need to do to keep it from leading up the barrel. I use Lee liq. alox lube on straight WW cast boolits.
I'm shooting it out of a T\C Contender with a 21" barrel.

Thanks In Advance.

Randy The Birddog.

[NuJudge]

Regarding gas check bullets being seated with the gas check below the bottom of the shoulder, I would worry about gas checks falling off if loose, and I have seen pictures illustrating a heavily erroded surface on the part of bullets that was below the case neck.

A loose check falling off and rattling around with the powder could become a barrel obstruction.

The picture I saw of a bullet with heavy errosion was in an NRA publication. I did not see there any comment on that Lead being deposited in the barrel.

I have always achieved the best accuracy with cast bullets in non-semiautos when I lightly engraved the bullet in the rifling, and the bullet fit the throat. Having barrels that are almost all military in origin, this means that bullets are always seated far enough out that I never have gas checks seaed below the neck. With .30-30 barrels, you may find the same true.

I hope this helps.

CDD

[44man]

I shot some GC boolits out of my 30-30 contender years ago without the checks. With checks I shot nickels at 100 yd's but without them every boolit went through the target sideways at 50 yd's.
I see no problem seating past the neck if the checks fit tight and are crimped good. I would be afraid of loose checks.
Someone else here should know more about this.

[Lead melter]

birddog,
While some advise against the policy of seating a gas check below the neck, my experience has been to the contrary. I do it all the time.

Never having used the mold in question, I have used the Lee 309's in 150 and 170 grain, plus the Lee 312-185 grain. These have all been loaded in 30-30, 308, and 7.62X54R and sometimes do seat below the neck with no adverse results. That is with the use of a crimp-on check, both Hornady and Gator, not the old snap-on variety.

When sizing, the check usually has ample purchase to really grip the check shank and will not be able to twist, much less fall off.

Oftentimes someone finds a cast boolit in backing or dirt at the target. The check is not on the shank and they figure the check flew off in transit. I have found the same boolits sans checks, but have also found the checks nearby. My thought is that since the base of the boolit is more important than the nose, the check coming off in flight would cause deflection of the boolit and result in fliers and keyholing. This just has not happened to me.

Check it, size it, load it, seat it, shoot it. Then report back your results.

[Newtire]

I too have shot all kinds of boolits seated below the neck with crimped on checks and no problems.

I would worry more about the lube and not having any on the bottom part of the boolit.

[birddog1520]

Thanks for the reply's,

I forgot to say I'm using Hornady crimp on checks, as far as seating out far enough to not go past the neck my barrel won't let me do that with these boolits the barrel won't close. I use an empty case with a cut in the neck to check to the lands measurement and with this boolit I have to go past the canalure groove to get it off the lands, but at this point in time it is the only .30 cal. mold I have. I'll try a couple loaded both ways and see what I come up with.
Any and all suggetstions are always welcome.

If anyone has a load suggestion for the 30-30 I'm open to your thoughts.

Thanks again for all the help.

Randy, The Birddog.

[Maven]

birddog...., Use those CB's unsized with between 7.5grs. - 9.0grs. Unique to prevent leading. Blue Dot will also work, but I think I use between 8.0grs. - 9.5grs. in the .30-30Win.

[Ricochet]

Most of the rifle loads I shoot wouldn't be possible to load with the gas check in the neck. Never had any problems. The old brass Lyman checks that didn't crimp on would worry me if seated below the neck. For some reason Lyman thought checks were supposed to be like a wad or sabot and fall away after leaving the muzzle. Bummer.

[Boerrancher]

Bird Dog,

I ran into this same problem with the same boolit, in my Mod 94 30-30. When I seat the boolit with the check still in the neck, the rounds will not feed through the tube and up through the receiver, as they are about 1/8 in too long. I started slowly seating them back until the action worked smoothly, which left the gas check even with the shoulder of the cartridge. I am not overly concerned, other than maybe some etching on the sides of the boolit above the gas check until it is forced far enough up the bore to seal off.

If you are worried about the gas check coming off before it leaves the barrel, fill the case with toilet paper and then seat your boolit. I shoot 30 gr of IMR 4895 behind my C309-180-R that is made out of a straight WW alloy. I make my own gas checks now and once they are run through the sizer and crimped onto the base they don't move, and tend to come out of the sizer at around 0.3095 I have yet to have any issues with leading, with this load. I can't tell you the velocity as my friend took his chronograph with him when he moved. All I know is that with this load, it is starting to show a bit of pressure by flattening the primers, and leaves the impression of the screw slots from the but plate in my shoulder. The load does shoot fairly well for an Iron sighted 94 though.

[Blammer]

Mine look like this.



and shoot like this

[birddog1520]

Thanks Guys,

Maven - I'll try them unsized to see what I get.

Ricochet - I had heard that about Lyman checks so I went with Hornady instead.

Boerrancher- I've been reading about making my own gas checks. Where can I get the tool to make them? I'd appreciate that info very much.

Blammer - Nice shootin there feller! How is it at 100 yrds? I also use these boolits in my 30.06 encore 15" barrel and the shoot great out of that, and they look alot like the ones in your picture.

Thank you again for the help.

Randy, The Birddog.

[Blammer]

ran out of bullets before I could get to 100 yds... will try next time an see.

[andrew375]

I'd go with Blammer, find out if it is actually a problem, accuacy wise, first. I've never been concerned about where the bullet base is in the case so long as I know the gas check, if there is one, is going to stay on.

[Boerrancher]

Boerrancher- I've been reading about making my own gas checks. Where can I get the tool to make them? I'd appreciate that info very much.

Randy, The Birddog.

Check on Ebay. Sellers name is Codarnall, listed as a Gas Check Making Tool item # 230252667856. I don't own one of his, and I will probably never own one of his, but that is because of personal reasons and not because of the tool. I have shot some of the checks made by Codarnall's tool and they do work well.

Mine was made by a member of this board and it works real well. What I will tell you about the homemade gas checks is that it is time consuming, and this notion of cutting a single disk out of a soda can, stamping it into a GC, and making it work on the base of a boolit is a joke. You need to slug your bore, and make lots of gas checks of various thicknesses and start seating them on your boolits and micing them. When you find the material that makes a check the same size or at least a half a thousandth bigger than your grove dia on your barrel you will have something that will probably shoot well.

I have to seat mine past the crimp groove in order for them to feed in my mod 94 lever gun. I haven't had any problems as of yet. Unless I get an undersized gas check or two. I am now very picky about the material I use to make sure it is uniform in thickness.

That is just what I found works for me, and you will find probably as many other methods as there are users. I know that it may sound a bit silly but try any and all the methods you think may work, because guns are as individual as you and I, and just because my method works in my 30-30, does not mean it will work in yours. I tried sever other ways to get cast boolits to shoot well in my 30-30. Most of the time as many here will attest to it is just trial and error, with in my case many trials and errors.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[birddog1520]

Joe,

Thank you much for that info, I do slug my barrels to get best fit so I'm ok there and I will do more reserch on a gas check tool, I'm the kind of guy who likes tinkering with home made things so taking time to make sure everything is right does not bother me at all.

Thanks Again,

Randy, The Birddog.