.410 Buck and Ball question...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For use on coyotes or bobcats, with a desire to be humane, this begs the question which you plan to hit him with. If it is the ball, how much difference are a few out of 25 No6 shot going to make? If it is the shot, why not forget the ball and have a lot more of them?
r
Buck and ball hasn't found much favour in large caliber shotguns for deer, in which a small number of large buckshot, the size as in a deer buckshot load, are used. It was more an early military load, and quite useful from a smoothbore in dense brush, but animals don't know to quit and report sick.

It strikes me that the best thing for the purpose intended would be to concentrate on a single ball or slug, both of which can be quite effective from a shotgun. The trouble is that most .410s are quite heavily choked, and don't allow a projectile which fits the rest of the bore closely, either due to its own diameter or use in a shot cup wad.

[ThaDave]

The birdshot was mostly to retain as much of the original payload weight as possible. Now that I know a little more (still a lot to learn) we may do away with the birdshot. We tried a load with (2) .358 dia CLSWC in a 2.5" shell that recoiled hard, hit hard but hit low we are going to try it again but with a single slug as well as doing the double slug load in a 3" shell to see if we get better result



This is the load that I liked the best and want to load more of for testing. The gf is the one (and she's right) to retest all of the best ones and filter them down based on repeatability, ease of loading and cost per shot.

The is was 2.5" #8 bird shot shell that we cut and dumped then replaced the payload with (3) 36 caliber Cast lead round balls and a TP wad glued in place with white elmer's glue. The point of aim was the top edge of the black circle from 12-15 yards. I think this will work well for coyotes and such.

[BAGTIC]

I would do away with the shot unless using an all shot load. At the short ranges designated it won't matter if a slug tumbles or not. A cast bullet will pivot around its center of gravity and with small animals it is going to thoroughly penetrate regardless of its orientation upon impact.

[BAGTIC]

In a mixed projectile load the heavier projectile should always be on top. Even with mixed shot size loads, for example 7 1/2 and 5 the larger shot should always be on top for best patterms. The smaller projectiles are slowed by drag faster and the ones bringing up the rear (drafting) will quickly over run the leaders breaking up the pattern.

[edler7]

Have you given any thought to using a .40 cal gas check for a shot or top wad? They might weigh enough to replace the birdshot you are using to make up the weight difference.

[35remington]

My objection to the pistol bullets is that they take up too much room and offer nothing over a .36 ball in terms of penetration in a relevant sense while at the same time lowering the odds of a strike where intended. More hits with useable penetration is better than fewer.

[CHeatermk3]

Buck-and-ball was used in smoothbore muskets, generally 69 caliber, for shooting into a closely-packed line of infantry at close (50yds or less) range. Given the accuracy, or rather lack thereof, of these weapons, the BnB load was the original "spray and pray" type load. Besides theoretically increasing the number of wounding hits on infantry it was easier to get a reload in for a second effective volley to hopefully break the enemy's advance before closing to bayonet range.

You will be better off with accuracy, producing effective hits unless firing into massed advancing wildlife infantry.

In the waterfowling blinds this is also known as "flock shooting", which in my experience rarely produces game in the bag.

But as long as it's safe and fun, that's what it's all about, eh? I agree your favorites look quite promising!

Edit--your 9,10 target seems to have 9 holes in it? Did you shoot 3 rounds of 3 balls each, or am I not seeing the image clearly?

[ThaDave]

Buck-and-ball was used in smoothbore muskets, generally 69 caliber, for shooting into a closely-packed line of infantry at close (50yds or less) range. Given the accuracy, or rather lack thereof, of these weapons, the BnB load was the original "spray and pray" type load. Besides theoretically increasing the number of wounding hits on infantry it was easier to get a reload in for a second effective volley to hopefully break the enemy's advance before closing to bayonet range.

- The birdshot was mostly added to keep the payload weight as close to the factory specs as possible.

You will be better off with accuracy, producing effective hits unless firing into massed advancing wildlife infantry.

- Never know. Those fearsome ground squirrels can get pretty nasty sometimes.

In the waterfowling blinds this is also known as "flock shooting", which in my experience rarely produces game in the bag.

- I'm going Dove hunting for the first time in years next month I will keep this in mind.

But as long as it's safe and fun, that's what it's all about, eh? I agree your favorites look quite promising!

- Safe, fun cost and ballistically effective for humane kills on coyote sized threats.

Edit--your 9,10 target seems to have 9 holes in it? Did you shoot 3 rounds of 3 balls each, or am I not seeing the image clearly?

-I think you are seeing the glued in wad impacting the target. We found that was common with these loads.

[35 Whelen]

If you're needing this as you say for a camp gun for which you foresee shooting coyotes and the such at 10 - 15 yards, I assure you a 3" load of #4 shot will trash a coyote or similar size animal at that range.
But if you're like the rest of us (self included) and just love to reload and experiment, play around with some buckshot or round balls. I used to load them in 3" .410 shells by simply replacing the shot with as many 0 or 00 buckshots pellets as I could fit in the hull, usually around 5. Out to 25 yds. patterns were more than tight enough to put 3 or 4 pellets in to a dears vital area so such a load should be great for the critters you describe.

35W

[Outpost75]

.410 All-Brass Shells
I've done this, fire-forming from .303 British, as well as 9.3x74R German and more recently using Magtech .410 all-brass shells from Midway. Load data, wads and assembly/crimping technique are different from using modern plastic shells and wads.

In break-open shotguns, all-brass cases are easily made by fireforming from .303 British brass, which is cheap and plentiful. Charge the case with ten grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotshell powder. The powder type isn't important, almost anything you have around the shop will work. Push a cotton ball down onto the powder, fill the case up to the shoulder with Cream of Wheat, then press a Gulf wax plug into the case mouth. Fire-form the case pointing the muzzle straight up. The resulting case will be 2.25" in length. Cases should fire-form perfectly without splits on the first pop if they are mouth annealed first. Cases which have been reloaded as rifle rounds several times absolutely must be annealed first! A quickie on how to anneal rifle brass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVeRDAsrCfM

With Magtech brass use, 15.4 grains of #2400 powder, thrown from the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, using the rotor #19. Place a Buffalo Arms .44 vegetable fiber 1/16” card over the powder, then two Buffalo Arms .44-45 wool felt cushion wads , LIGHTLY oiling the top cushion wad only, applying TWO DROPS of 30 weight motor oil with an eye dropper, squishing the wad between the fingers a few times to work it in, then wrapping the wad in a square of TP, squeezing it again between the thumb and forefinger to wick out and absorb the excess oil.

A .45 Schofield case holds half an ounce of lead shot to solder up a dip measure. For birdshot fill the case to within 1/8” of the case mouth, insert another 1/16” card and glue in place with Elmers. You can get a bit more shot in using the old fashioned card and fiber wad column, but my cylinder-bore gun throws better patterns using the Federal No. 410SC (1/2 oz. Skeet) shot cup over the card, pouring the shot into that and closing the shell by crimping (or gluing with Elmer's) a .36 cal. card inside the top of the shot cup, as shown in the photo below.

If you have a Lee 7.62x54R Russian seater die, you can make a more finished-looking crimp, by inserting a blank Lyman 450 sizer top punch into the seater die plug, adjusting the seating stem to position the top card, below the die shoulder, then using a .44 cal. card to fit the all-brass shell, or .36 cal. to fit inside the Federal shotcup if using that wad. You want to hold the overshot card slightly below the case mouth, as you bump the case mouth against the die shoulder to form a nicely rounded, professional-looking crimp.

If loading buckshot, insert a card firmly over the powder, as you did before. A Federal No.410SC plastic shotcup is used as the buckshot container and the fiber filler wads are not needed. The plastic shot cup MUST NOT be used in all-brass cases without an over-powder card, because its diameter is too small to seal the case interior. Omitting the card results in powder leaking past the wad, causing “bloopers.” After firmly seating a Federal No.410SC plastic wad, drop four 00 buck into the shot cup, then add one cast .390” round ball cast of SOFT lead on top of the stack. Adjust the seater so that the top ball is crimped positively into the end of the shell. Alternately you can load FOUR pellets of 000 buck in the shot cup, or the same number of .390" cast round balls in the brass shell with fiber wad column and no plastic shot cup.

Four .39" cast round balls total 350 grains or 0.8 of an ounce. Each pellet at 25 yards has 150 ft.-lbs. of energy, about the same as a .380 ACP pocket pistol at the same distance. If the .390 balls fall through your gun's choke and they pattern well, the improvement in energy is dramatic! I use the same 15.4 grain charge of #2400 in my gun, but it is, admittedly a "hot" load. I suggest reducing the charge to 12 grains, using Little Dandy Rotor #15 and work up cautiously.

The 1951 Ideal Handbook provides data with #2400 powder for .410 shells with conventional wad columns. It suggests thickness of the filler wad(s) should be not less than 1/2 bore diameter and not more than bore diameter. Minimum filler wad thickness in the 410 bore is 0.205 inches.

A .444 Marlin sizer die with Lee No.5 shell holder can be used to resize brass cases if necessary. Prime cases with large pistol primers. The RCBS Little Dandy Rotors #19 measures the appropriate charge of Alliant #2400. Thumb over powder card into case mouth, and slide firmly onto the powder using a dowel. Similarly seat the filler wad(s), or plastic shotcup, if used. Add shot and top card or buckshot. Glue top card or crimp, if a suitable die is available. That’s all there is to it.

Two all-brass .410s, one with birdshot and plastic shot sleeve, another with buckshot, at right is a .44-40 cartridge shown for size comparison. Attachment 148841

Pattern at 50 feet of four 000 buck loaded in all-brass shell and shot in 20" CYLINDER BORE .410
Attachment 148842

.44 Shot assembled in Starline 5 in 1 blank case with 5 grains Bullseye, birdshot and ball fired from CYLINDER bore .410. These are useable in either .44 Magnum, .44-40 rifles or revolvers, .45 ACP revolvers, .45 Colt revolvers or rifles or break-open .410 shotguns. Effective survival kit load.
Attachment 148843