crescent buttplate

[bigted]

I am wholeheartedly in agreement.

[DR Owl Creek]

I have five different custom made traditional Hawken rifles with crescent butt plates. One is a .58 caliber round ball gun. One is a fast twist .40 caliber that would be roughly equivalent to a .40-65 BPCR. One is a fast twist .45 caliber that would be roughly equivalent to a .45-70 BPCR. They're all quite comfortable to shoot with full power loads if you shoot them properly, with the butt plate on your upper arm.

If you don't use any firearm properly, it won't be comfortable to shoot.

Dave

[fouronesix]

Incorrectly shoot any firearm with stout recoil, short barrel and of sporter weight and you will get whacked. I always thought the crescent butt was more of an artistic style carried over from the past than of practical function. Old, target guns designed for various off hand competitions have exaggerated crescent butts. But they were fairly heavy and honestly not of a type with heavy recoil anyway.

Most Hawken type rifles are heavy and designed to shoot PRB. No matter the charge or caliber, I've never noticed much in severe felt recoil- so the classic crescent butt is not of much consequence. On the other hand, load a T/C Renegade up with a conical and stout load and even with its shotgun type butt it will kick the snot out of you off the bench- whether you hold the butt to the shoulder or somewhere down the arm. Huge muzzle rise and a tendancy to drive the comb and your trigger hand into you cheek and nose. All having nothing to do with where on the shoulder or arm you place the butt.

I may be built differently from those in the "crescent on the arm camp" but I don't think so. If that butt is placed very far at all out away from the normal shoulder placement then you have to lean or cant your head and start looking at the sights side ways. I'm also skeptical about those proposing/recommending placing that butt out away from the normal shoulder pocket and shooting truly heaving recoiling rifles- no matter the butt style. It of course all sounds sage and cool in print to recommend shooting heavy recoiling rifles with the butt out away from the normal shoulder placement… but I certainly don't recommend it. But, the only way to find out for yourself is to take a normal 9-10 pound sporter with 60-70 ft lbs or more of recoil and shoot it. Give it a go, as was recommended in an earlier post, with the butt (modern, not crescent) out away from the normal shoulder pocket then report back on how that works out.

[DR Owl Creek]

Incorrectly shoot any firearm with stout recoil, short barrel and of sporter weight and you will get whacked.
...

Most Hawken type rifles are heavy and designed to shoot PRB. No matter the charge or caliber, I've never noticed much in severe felt recoil- so the classic crescent butt is not of much consequence. On the other hand, load a T/C Renegade up with a conical and stout load and even with its shotgun type butt it will kick the snot out of you off the bench- whether you hold the butt to the shoulder or somewhere down the arm.
...

The Hawkens I mentioned in my previous post aren't exactly "pea shooters". My .58 caliber round ball gun has an incised carved curly maple stock, a Green Mountain 36" octagonal barrel with 1:70" twist, a lock designed by Ron Long and assembled by Davis' Locks, a Davis' Hawken trigger, and a poured pewter nose cap. My normal load is a .570" round ball (actual weight about 281 grains), with a .015" patch, over 100 grains of FFg black powder.

My .40 caliber fast twist Hawken, has a very curly maple stock, an Ed Rayl 32" octagonal barrel made of 4150 ordnance grade steel with a 1:14" twist, a lock designed by Ron Long and assembled by Davis' Locks, a Hawken trigger by Davis, and a poured pewter nose cap. My normal load is a Lyman #410655 .410" 400 grain nominal weight (actual weight about 428 grains) .40 caliber Sharps bullet, over 65 grains of FFg black powder.

My .45 caliber fast twist Hawken has a very curly maple stock, a Howard Kelly 32" octagonal barrel with 1:22" twist, a Griffith lock, a L&R Hawken trigger, and a poured pewter nose cap. My normal load is a Lyman #457125 .458" 500 grain nominal weight (actual weight about 525 grains) bullet, over 65 grains of FFg black powder. The recoil on this one is about the same my 1886 Winchester 45-70 lever action, which also has a crescent steel butt plate, when shooting 405 grain 45-70 loads.

Why anyone would want to have a nice traditional style firearm, and then not learn how to shoot it properly is way beyond me. Putting a rubber butt pad on one of these rifles would be an abomination to me too. If you want a rubber butt pad on a muzzle loader, I'd suggest just buying one of those plastic stocked in-lines from Waly World instead. IMHO.

Dave

[Geezer in NH]

I solved my trouble with the *** crescent plate on my Hawken.

UCK ruined that one IMHO Past makes a recoil pad you can wear without messing the gun up. Sorry I am traditional and don't like inline either but if it works for you it is better than a suppository gun.

[idahoron]

Some say messed up, I say useful. A crescent but pad is worthless as a pile of dog **** to me. But if you like them good for you.

[crossxsticks]

UCK ruined that one IMHO Past makes a recoil pad you can wear without messing the gun up. Sorry I am traditional and don't like inline either but if it works for you it is better than a suppository gun.

i dont see folks pulling out there thompson center Hawkins at a reg. shoot and braggin on there traditional rifle . anything your can do to make a tc hawkins or renegade a better rifle get-r-done i like the recoil pad idea i may put one on my renegade

[Ken in Iowa]

Great subject for this thread. I hope people stop crapping in it....

A few thoughts-

I have been around muzzle loaders since the 60s. Most of the rifles then were traditionally styled. In our local NMLRA type matches, 40-45 caliber rifles were very popular. Sure, there were a number of 58 caliber muskets, but the serious target rifles were 40-45. The 50 and 54 calibers were just not popular yet.

Most events were offhand. Cross stick and bench rest matches were not as numerous. Prone was unheard of. One could conjecture that most hunting in the old days was taken in the standing position or with an improvised rest with an upright posture. The crescent buttplate would help.

The old Kentucky or Pennsylvania style rifles had long barrels. 40" or longer was the norm. 18th and 19th century people were shorter and lighter than today. To shoulder that front heavy rifle with shorter arms, that crescent buttplate would be a great help.

The western "Hawkin" style mountain rifles saw the move towards larger calibers and shorter barrels. The crescent plate was retained, but the need for it was lessening.

[Ken in Iowa]

In the early 70s, I built a Hawken rifle proportioned to my stature - long and tall. It has a 36" Bill Large 54 caliber round ball barrel and a long length of pull. Long Crescent buttplate of course. It fits me like a glove.

I discovered to get the accuracy out of that barrel, I needed 100 grains of powder. On the plus side, it was quite a good shooter at 200 yards. It would be fun to try it at 250-300, but I haven't yet.

The rifle works great offhand and OK on cross sticks. Bench rest is a little uncomfortable as the top of the plate digs in a bit. Had the drop at the heel been a bit higher it wouldn't be an issue. Then again, it's perfect when standing.

Since mine and Dr. Owl Creek's 58 are similar to what you want to build, I think pics are in order bigted.

[crossxsticks]

talk about pic's how about the one on the cover of July Muzzle Blast and the first 10 pages, now there is some butt plates with a rifle attach to it oh yeah ,

[bigted]

I like the way you guys think ... soon as I get my picture taking device working ... I will add some photo's of my rifles and the stock I have to begin another.

I would certainly enjoy any photo's anybody has of their rifles and the buttplates. I enjoy seeing others rifles and take to gleaning useful info from them as well. history is on the edge of my compass but shootability is everything to me. I would and will want to be as close to history as I can and still be able to enjoy not only the look of the rifle but the shootability.

bring on the pictures I say.