What size difference for proper neck tension for .38-55?

[EDG]

I am still interested in this thread but I may not participate much in the coming days. I have a family member in a hospice.

[ascast]

hey all, I could not find this thread again. You can drive yourself nutz with this neck tension stuff. And then you can start neck turning all your brass. ha ha
I was happy with 0.002"-0.003" size difference. You don't want your boolits falling out of the cases while handling. After that, it's about brass life.
And also, with good tension you can better measure the concentricity read-out. More tension will seat a bullet straighter, but seating slow with a good seating die will work just fine. 38-56 or Lyman 310 dies will get you a good cylindrical neck. You can adjust the tension to suit by limiting the depth of the neck sizing and the size of the expanding plug. You can enlarge the hole in the neck sizing die as well. With 38-56 or Lyman 310 dies you will get a pronounced shoulder on your brass. I never had a case fail there, but I expect it might after many reloads and no annealing.
I don't think all that neck tension will contribute to cleaner burning ( black) in any amount that you could ever prove. In other words, if fouling is an issue that get talked about, I'd bet you could get a custom two diameter bullet mold with bigger lube grooves and room for a grease cookie quicker and cheaper than you could ever prove that more neck tension burns cleaner.
supper time

[BCRider]

I am still interested in this thread but I may not participate much in the coming days. I have a family member in a hospice.

I'm sad to read this EDG. I wish them peace and dignity with attendance by lots of the family and friends.

My own mother spent her last days in a hospice. It was a short time but it was a nice environment compared to a hospital.

___________________

Ascast, I foresee a LOT of testing ahead with the two neck tension settings I've got to play with thanks to the two expanders. Then there's the potential issue of some powders wanting to see a high neck tension and others perhaps doing well with a lower neck tension.

For now I'm going to stick to one bullet just so there isn't too many moving targets to deal with. So I picked up another box of the .376" 265gn gas checked bullets like the one I included in the picture a few posts back. Otherwise I'll be totally chasing my tail with variations.

Even the .001'ish amount of neck tension is not to be sneezed at. I could not simply push the bullet in by fingers. Oh sure, I could force it with more effort. But not with any sort of control. The handle of the press was still surprisingly stiff seating the bullets in the .375Win cases with their thicker walls even with the .0005 to .001 worth of neck tension.

[oger]

A long time ago I picked up a Shiloh Sharps in 38-55. After my different loads, sizes and bullets I ended up with fire forming the cases and just touching the case with a sizer to hold the .377 bullet in place with no crimp.

[BCRider]

A long time ago I picked up a Shiloh Sharps in 38-55. After my different loads, sizes and bullets I ended up with fire forming the cases and just touching the case with a sizer to hold the .377 bullet in place with no crimp.

That's what I did with the .38-55 Starline brass I was using up to now.

But this latest effort of switching away from the thin wall .38-55 brass to the thicker walled .375Win brass to suit my own particular barrel situation has me working with new brass which is undersized. So I'm using the brass straight from the bag, chamfering the lips and running the custom expander to fit the .376 bullets I've got.

[RonT]

I also reload the fire formed cases using only a RCBS Cowboy seater mounted in a Lee Hand loader. I flair the mouth slightly (!) thumb seat the boolit (Seaco 300 gr.) and bump to crimp in the Lee.

Cheers,
R

[MT Chambers]

I'd get a Lyman M-die or NOE that opens case to max. .002" under bullet size.

[BCRider]

MT, I think I've got that covered with my home shop made custom expanders shown in the picture a few posts back.

Now getting back to the actual neck tension of the fit itself. The .3755 expander results in an opening in the new brass of an even .375 or just a hair larger near as I can tell. So there's not a lot of spring back from the brass. The resulting fit on the bullet with the .001 interferrence still very much needs the use of the press. I think I could seat with thumb pressure but it would be so firm a push that I'd have no control whatsoever on the seating depth. And certainly pulling the bullet back would simply not happen without a bullet puller being used.

So to those of you saying that you're just slipping the bullets into place by hand it sounds like we're looking for a size for size fit or something very much less than a .001 interference for just enough neck tension that it grabs slightly. Have any of you that seat with a thumb fit like this actually measured the size of the neck and bullet to arrive at an actual value?

[RonT]

"Have any of you that seat with a thumb fit like this actually measured the size of the neck and bullet to arrive at an actual value? "
Nope. I figgered that the old guys who sat around a campfire using 310 tools were satisfied, so am I.
My first loads in new Starlines leave a bulged case where the boolit seats (I do use an overpowder card, however) which goes away after the first shot. From then on it's shoot, clean case, reload, shoot again.
Cheers,
R

[country gent]

Most of the "thumb" seated bullets are over charges of black powder compressed with a wad that also supports the bullet in place. Hand seating into case with airspace and bullets can drop deeper into case. With black powder my expanders are plus .0005-.001 over bullet dia but these have a powder wad stack up that keeps the bullet in position. One trick you can do with fired brass is only size to the mouth dia you want. To do this set die way high and run case into it. check lower 1/2 turn and repeat. when you get close go to 1/4 turns on the die. This works due to the taper on the case. On my rounds with black powder I size after bullet is in place with a bushing die. bullets are very light friction fit and can be turned in case neck still.

[BCRider]

Ron, with my oversize chamber/small bore setup I found the same thing. But for the reloads after the first fire forming the bullets would literally fall into the cases due to the generous "lever gun" size chamber. So I had to half way size them. Thank goodness these are tapered casings so I could do that. Then I flared a little. After seating the bullets with a moderate neck tension I left the flare as an aid to at least centering the bullet in the somewhat loose fitting chamber.

With the thicker wall .375Win brass I've shot the fire formed cases take the .376 size bullets with a light push. The few remaining .377's I've got also fit with a little firmer finger pressure. So at least the .375Win brass has nailed down and corrected the chamber mismatch issue! ! ! !

Country Gent, thanks muchly for the hard numbers. Your input and the figures from the others that provided info on the actual size difference is what is hard to find out on the web. And in fact this thread is now likely one of the most complete and concise collections of throat tension options for .38-55 to be found.

I was always planning on eventually going to black powder. But I didn't want to get into steaming away the smokeless powder lube and replacing it with BP lube. But maybe I need to do this sooner instead of later.

So...... 2F or 3F?

[country gent]

Both can be used Start with 2f but also try 3f. Also dont over look 1.5f in it. WIth 2f your probably going to be around 47-48 grns with wad and compressed for bullet depth. Star with a charge that just fills case to where bottom of bullet will be. increase this in 2 grn increments with same wad and compress to depth before seating bullet. A drop tube will help to get a better charge of powder settled into place before compressing also. As to the hand seating almopst any interference fit is more than can be done by hand. At .0005 you have to hold the bullet very square to start and seat in place or it cocks and sticks. Another is the spring back of the brass when coming off the expander. Why partial resizing works easier spring back here is larger, expanding up spring back makes smaller. A way to be able to do both is simple. Set die lock ring to full length size. leave set here and raise die working down to where partial seating gives desired neck size. Measure with a set of feeler gages or calipers if more than feeler gages. Make a shim this thick 7/8 id 1 1/4-1 1/2 od. when wanting to partial size just use the shim under the lock ring.

[Dan4570]

Hi,

My shooting buddy made a new expander plug for his RCBS 45-70 dies,,,I am going to talk him into making a new one for my 45-90 dies. They were both designed for the 405 grn and smaller lever gun bullets. (Yeah! stuff a 560 grn Creedmore from a Brooks Mold into a case expanded for a 350 grn bullet!! makes an odd look to the case)

The new plug he made for his dies opens the neck up to fir the bullet properly, and just a smidge deeper, in the end he can fit a little more powder in the case, no buldge, and the rifle seemed to like it. He went a bit further and opened up the sizing die to split the difference between fireed case and factory full length re-size. I can say that the additional work was well spent time, and it helped to boost velocities, and tighten up the groups.

I think your on the right track. Good luck!

[Doc Highwall]

When I make a ex-pander for my dies I make them longer then the deepest seated bullet by .025" to .050".

If the deepest seated bullet is .500" into the case I make the cylindrical part that actually expands the neck .525" to .550" before the second step that bells the case mouth enters the case. The extra .025" to .050" length will help protect the square base of a non gas check bullet from looking like a bevel base bullet when seated.

[BCRider]

Doc, great minds obviously think alike.... That's just what I did.

The nose of the new expanders has a rounded over nose portion of course and the top end has a slight flare to bell the cases a little. I profiled the HSS cutter to a sweeping shape so it cut the flaring portion along the length and left it at the end. In between the parallel portion is a touch longer than the longest bullet I'm planning on running.

Dan, I like that idea. But the dies I'm using are carbide. I'm not sure I'll have much luck with lapping them out unless I used diamond lapping compound. And I'm not even sure that's going to do a nice job. It's an interesting idea though. As it is I'm just kissing the first 1/2 of the .375Win brass and about 2/3's of the Starline .38-55 brass to size them down to where they are a nice fit on the bullets.

[l h jenkins]

what is difference of win. 1885 made in japan from all the others?

[BCRider]

LH, do you have one or just considering getting one? If it's sitting in your house the best option is to get some Cerrosafe and cast the chamber and use a soft lead round ball to slug the bore. Then you can measure them and know what you're working with.

[EDG]

Carbide dies for the 38-55? Who makes them?

Doc, great minds obviously think alike.... That's just what I did.

The nose of the new expanders has a rounded over nose portion of course and the top end has a slight flare to bell the cases a little. I profiled the HSS cutter to a sweeping shape so it cut the flaring portion along the length and left it at the end. In between the parallel portion is a touch longer than the longest bullet I'm planning on running.

Dan, I like that idea. But the dies I'm using are carbide. I'm not sure I'll have much luck with lapping them out unless I used diamond lapping compound. And I'm not even sure that's going to do a nice job. It's an interesting idea though. As it is I'm just kissing the first 1/2 of the .375Win brass and about 2/3's of the Starline .38-55 brass to size them down to where they are a nice fit on the bullets.

[BCRider]

Carbide dies for the 38-55? Who makes them?

Well, I thought the Lee dies I've got were. But your post made me go and check them and lo and behold it looks like they are "just" steel. So making up a brass lap and opening them out becomes doable pretty easily. Well..... a few laps actually since I'd not want to try polishing with the same lap that I do the roughing out with. Like as not there's bound to be some of the coarser grit in the brass. So I'm likely looking at two or perhaps even three laps to open it up and polish the finish back to something usable.

[Nobade]

You might try silicon carbide sandpaper wrapped around a split dowel. That will work better than a lap.

-Nobade