simple Hi-Tek coating

[Shotgundrums]

I contacted Donnie this afternoon. I politely asked for a small sample of the bronze to test with my "coating-problematic" revolvers. A friend of mine is going to try and acquire a 55 gallon drum for me to aid in testing. Im leaving the states for official business for a month. Donnie told me no problem and to call him back then, remind him of the conversation, and by that time should have plenty of the coating.
With this ill do testing on 92/6/2 alloy and WW alloy, test epoxy coating, HiTek powder, red copper and Bronze with both alloy. I'll Take Notes and pictures on each outcome. Sound good??

[Avenger442]

Went to the range today. Really bad day to try and zero a new scope. Wind was constantly changing direction and speed. My targets were moving around it was so bad. We have had about two weeks of off and on rain and the range was a mud hole.

Shot .223 bolt gun with Winchester hollow point varmint loads and soft point Remington against my reloads with the Hi-Tek coated Lee Bator bullets. Shot about 100 rounds total with the lead the last ones shot.. The Hi-Tek shot as accurate as the factory loads. In fact a bit better than the Remington. Right at 2" at 100 yards. Wish I could find some Federal match ammo in the store. According to Manufacturer that is what they used to test the gun.

Anyway, was running a patch through the barrel before checking for lead and got back some bright flecks of metal. I thought oh no my first leading with the Hi-Tek. First time I've shot this loading. Pulled the aluminum rod out and guess what. I had inadvertently let the rod get against the rifling and it scraped a place in the rod.

I know this is going to sound like the newbie I am at using lead bullets but I haven't had anything that looks like leading in a barrel. If you get some leading in the barrel like I read some of you describing as grey streaks at what point does it effect the accuracy of the gun? When it fills up a portion of the rifling? Not that I know but, I can't see a streak of color on the rifling having that much effecting on accuracy and I have read that some want to shoot matches with dirty barrels.

Good results today considering the weather. Lee Bantor coated with Hi-Tek 3 coats 1035 Gold liquid. 2" at 100 yards with no leading in the barrel.

[Sticky]

Two questions: what was your alloy, and did you soak the Cu gas checks in acetone prior to installation (for degreasing purposes)?

These were cast with COWW and 2% tin added (water dropped from the mold), I also often use a 94/3/3 alloy that gets a little harder and no, I didn't soak the gas checks, not really worried about coating adherence to the Cu, if it does, great, if not, so what.. lol

Just figured that only having a single coat would make seating the checks a little easier and yes, they snapped right on by hand, then ran them through a Lee push-through sizer to size and crimp the checks on, then coated a second time. We'll see how they shoot in a couple weeks when they've aged.

[kryogen]

what do you use to make the checks

[kweidner]

If the lube on the bullet, in the case of lubed bullets, is working correctly no gas should get by the then liquid lube as it's primary purpose is to prevent gas from getting by. If the coating is hard enough I have a hard time believing the gas is going to cut through the coating in the short time the bullet is in the gun. Plated and FMJ bullets don't lead my revolvers that have barrel restrictions due to the tightening of the barrel or tight cylinders so why would a coating material that is as hard? Accuracy can certainly be affected though.

Take Care

Bob

It has been said with much repitition. It is not as hard as copper. yes barrel condition has much affect on it's life down the bore with HT. You have much to say and haven't even used the product yes?

[Sticky]

what do you use to make the checks

I use Hornady copper gas checks, bought commercially. My Brother has a checkmaker, but I haven't snagged it from him yet... lol

[gunoil]

Barrel size and bore problems in manufacturing is definitely some of the trouble. I've heard some say they see leading with copper plated bullets. Iam really involved in gas checking any caliber nowdays, l just like installing them.

[robertbank]

It has been said with much repetition. It is not as hard as copper. yes barrel condition has much affect on it's life down the bore with HT. You have much to say and haven't even used the product yes?

If I took your tack if I ran into trouble I would immediately blame it in the barrel. Why would you suggest Hi-Tek has to be as hard as copper. Ordinary lube is not as hard as copper and it works down these same barrels, just using a different approach to solve the leading problem. If you get the application wrong then Hi-Tek nor PC is not going to work. I have had some experience in PCing and I have heard nothing to suggest Hi-Tek doesn't rely on the same principle ie you have to apply it correctly or it won't work.

I'll have more to say once I get a warmer sunny day. I rather hope no more than two applications are all that is necessary for this product to work. One would be better.

As an aside the "why" barrels lead has been known for years. Do a search and I doubt you will find so much concern about the quality of handgun barrels than has been expressed on threads involving this product and to a lessor extent powder coating. If you have to drink some magic elixir for this product to work or if N.A. gun owners are the only folks who are cursed with bad barrels than it maybe time to move on. The stuff works, it is being used by many and commercial outlets are selling bullets with the product applied.

'Back to your point, the stuff doesn't have to be as hard as copper. For that matter it doesn't even have to be hard. It just has to prevent leading. In kryogen's example he is already sending a bullet down his barrels larger than the bore so the bore is sealed from gas cutting. If he is still getting leading then the coating must be coming off as the bullet goes down the barrel. Evidence tells us this must be happening because he reports the leading is nearer to the end of the muzzle. Either he has a rough barrel, and he says it is mirror smooth or the product is coming off on its own due to friction. If there is a third cause I am all ears.

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

How about hitech compared to a lead boolit run thru a magma star sizer proper. They are both lubes like said above. Does anyone have a star or lyman to state their opinions. Do star/lyman boolits lead (no coatings) the end of the pistol barrel?

[Maximumbob54]

I can add that I got into bullet coatings because a coated bullet can be a little more forgiving than a lubed lead bullet in multiple guns. I own several .357's and .38's and I used to have to keep several sizers on hand depending on what ammo was being made for what gun. Now it's just coat them and shoot them.

[Ausglock]

Matching alloy to the bullet to the bore is still the king.

Just humor me and buy 1 ingot of hardball alloy, cast with it. coat them. size them. shoot them.
inspect bore.
If.....If there is leading then I am at a loss.

[Avenger442]

Well I guess that I'm going to have to buy a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag. and start loading Hi-Tek in a wheel gun so I can understand. Nothing like living in the problem to help you understand it.

Ausglock:
Are you still using the Breville oven and is it connected with a PID?

[kryogen]

Matching alloy to the bullet to the bore is still the king.

Just humor me and buy 1 ingot of hardball alloy, cast with it. coat them. size them. shoot them.
inspect bore.
If.....If there is leading then I am at a loss.

Cant get hardball in canada. If I buy from the usa, it's going to cost the same to buy hardball alloy vs buying plated bullets.....
For me, it's either cast from scrap WW, or no cast.

If I cant get heat treated 358 3 coats to work, I'll make aluminum gas checks. Buying hardball makes no sense here in canada.
my COWW ingots cost is 30 cents a pound.

If it leads with my last try, I'll buy the pat marlins plain base check maker and just use that with aluminum flashing. Not that much of a trouble to place a GC and pass through lee sizer again.

[kweidner]

I have had tons of experience with this product. I think if you go back to the beginning of this thread you will find I was one of THE FIRST that got ahold of it after Donnie started selling it. I now have an FFL and do commercial sales, I have run thousands upon thousands down all my weapons and many others. THere is no snake oil here.
Please don't take this the wrong way, however, experience is wisdom. I would hate to send a person on a wild goose chase based upon speculation over what one reads. On the the other hand, those of us offering advise on hardness, coating process, cure times, temperature swings, proper loading technique etc. have been down this road.
On another note ,Comparing the two has been done many times. It is not the same (maybe Joe can chime in here) A sharp throat can shave it, improper seating can affect it. Bore condition CAN affect it. My only statement was how you can give advice from a chair when many of us are trying to offer concrete advise from EXPERIENCE?

I do value your opinion. I just am trying to offer that advise from MY experiences and what I do know about the product and how it has worked with literally TONS of lead I have applied it to. If it weren't that the offending issue was in a different country I would gladly send him some of mine to compare gratis to settle it.

To Avenger. I use Brevilles no need for the PID. They are rock solid. I have multiples and have used them pretty much every day sometimes 12 hours at a go and IIRC have had them over a year now. They have held up well are are well worth the money IMHO.
Use the cookie and Frozen setting it circulates the air better. I have tried all the settings and this has been the most consistent with the least temp differences throughout the tray. I am sure those Ausies like em cause they read celsius as well as fahrenheit too. Ausglock I though you built a big oven?

[Shotgundrums]

You are very correct , Trev. However, I am a firm believer in Elmer Keith. His favorite allowy when developing the 44 magnum cartridge as we know it today, he used 20:1 lead/tin and around 11 to 12 bhn with no leading. I believe for this to follow suit, bore and cylinder has to be harmonic. Modern revolvers nowadays are unfortunately made with cut corners I believe your revolvers are the exception; maybe you have some older models... I had a smith mod 29 for a while that was a dream with cast bullets and ate anything I fed it, soft, hard, without leading. I miss her

[Avenger442]

To Avenger. I use Brevilles no need for the PID. They are rock solid. I have multiples and have used them pretty much every day sometimes 12 hours at a go and IIRC have had them over a year now. They have held up well are are well worth the money IMHO.
Use the cookie and Frozen setting it circulates the air better. I have tried all the settings and this has been the most consistent with the least temp differences throughout the tray. I am sure those Ausies like em cause they read celsius as well as fahrenheit too. Ausglock I though you built a big oven?

Since the yard sale oven door went south and I'm tired of wiring it shut I'm headed for another oven. The oven has cooked about 70 lb of bullets for me. The only issue was that the heat wasn't evenly distributed and it would make some a shade darker than others. It was convection but cheap convection. No effect on the performance of the bullets. Hi-Tek has been working as well as any ammo I can buy for my rifles so I'm going to keep loading it.

The reason I asked about the PID, was I wondered if Ausglock had taken his apart to just wire the heating elements to the PID. If PID is not needed for Brevilles may add PID to another Lee pot like Ausglock has in his setup. That pot over a pot looks cool. Although I can't imagine using more than 20 lb of lead at a sitting.

[robertbank]

kweidener are you saying we must use very hard bullets for this stuff to work? If you are I'll out an order in for bullet lube and call this good. I have hopes that one or two coats will work. If it takes three coats it just is not worth the effort. Time costs. I personally am not going to spend all day to get a couple of hundred bullets done and then have them lead up the barrel because I don;t have the magical hardness in my lead. Frankly, a hard alloy makes little sense unless you are going to reharden the bullet. From what I hear the alloy will lose its temper when we heat and let the bullet air cool.

No offense taken. I invested $200 in PCing and the jury is out as to how effective that is. I freely admit I suspect I screwed up with the curing process. Time will tell. I did find out that seating the 356402 bullet was never going to be right using a Dillon seating die or a Lee for that matter. I now have a Lyman which seems to have solved the problem at its source. Whether or not the PC bullets hold up not I solved the seating issue has yet to be determined. All of this has been good experience because I have eliminated some of the issues that surely will impact th HI-TEK method.

Ship him some bullets if you are in the US. There is no problem shipping lead bullets across the 49th. Obama hasn't got to that yet.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

As you said bank, you absolutely need to seat without crimp first, and then just crimp enough to chamber.

On another note, I just got a nice shipment of 8 colours of Hi-tek that I can't wait to try.

I have mixed some gold, and gunmetal that I will try as soon as I have some time :P Yuk yuk.

[Avenger442]

Maybe what we could start with is a definition of hard and soft. To me a hard bullet is bumping 20 BHN+. A soft bullet would be 9 BHN and below.

I have been playing with the mixing of alloy for some time just to see what I could do. I have shot straight wheel weight, which I haven't tested the BHN on, in my .308 rifle at .5 grains short of the max load, 14 BHN (wheel weights plus 2% tin by weight) also at .5 grains short of max load, I'm shooting 16 BHN (2% tin 10% lino 88% wheel weights). The hardest I have shot to date I probably will never cast again because too hard for my use 24 BHN. That was this week in the .223. When you get that hard it can't be used for hunting in my opinion. All with no leading in my barrels. The wheel weight plus tin were also shot in a 44 magnum 1894 16 inch barrel with 23.5 grains of IMR 4227. Max load listed as 24 grains. That barrel, after a couple of passes with a dry patch looked like it had been cleaned. It was the most accurate load I shot. Better than the factory loads on groups.

I do coat three coats and have not tried two. Although Ausglock says I probably can. I can coat about 20 lb max in a 24 hour period with a one tray el-cheep-o oven. I'll let you do the math on how many that is for the 160 grain +/- and or 230 grain bullets I have been casting.

Hope the above helps.

I don't sell this stuff but would if I wanted to get into a bullet selling business. Donnie coats bullets for guys that shoot rifle. I don't think he would risk his business's rep buy sell something that doesn't work.

Keep at it. You can do it if a guy in his basement with a $15 (or was it $10) yard sale oven can.

Please excuse my cheer-leading attitude.

[Ausglock]

I pulled my Breville apart to fit a PID, but didn't finish it.

44 and 45 and 38spl run fine with 10 -12 BHN.
9mm 40 41 need 15-16BHn from my experience.
2 coats is all that is needed.
I run 3 coates for 44mag, 357mag rifle.