Ballard barreled action

[marlinman93]

That is a beautiful rifle, and the sort of restoration job it deserves. It annoys me when we see rarer firearms than a Nimschke Ballard, even, acquiring a high collector value when they earned their rarity by having the reek of disaster about them. Or collectors considering a dilapidated but original finish superior to the sort of work Ballard, Marlin and Nimschke would have been flattered to see done in the century after next.

My own Ballard also came as a barreled action, but is just the plainest type of Ball and Williams rimfire, not pitted but subject to every other sort of deterioration, and unsuitable for doing anything really exciting with. I wonder if factory information on a Marlin Ballard could be available, probably from the Buffalo Bill Center, as to the type of butt originally installed? Some would feel obliged to follow that, but I am not so sure the three gentlemen aforementioned would have worried. It isn't like it was an Austin Seven or something.

You have made that buttplate look very much in keeping. I think it did demand a bit of concavity in the line of the bottom of the butt. A pretty good line of Scheutzen buttplates is available from Track of the Wolf, http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/696/1 . I once modeled a set in wax, buttplate and forend cap with sling loop, for a target Martini, and had them cast in stainless steel. I think a buttplate without at least the upper prong might be better for someone who plans on doing much shooting from a position other than standing.


Attachment 133990

Yes, a lot of the value of these old guns is certainly due to how hard some were used, and how many were used up! I found one locally 8-9 years ago that had been in a family since WWII. The heirs who inherited it weren't interested, but knew it was valuable, and wanted to sell it. The story was that their late father was driving down the street when he saw the Ballard sitting on top of a pile of scrap metal! He pulled over and grabbed it to see what was wrong, when an elderly woman ran out of the house screaming at him to put it back! She said the gun was going to the metal drive to support the War effort, and he couldn't take it!
He told her he would go home and bring back twice it's weight in metal if she would let him save it. She agreed and took the gun in the house. He rushed home and loaded plenty of metal in his car, so there would be no doubt he was giving her enough, and took it back to make the trade. She approved, and gave him the old Ballard, which happened to have "H.M. Pope" stamped on the barrel!!!

Cody, nor Marlin has any records on Ballard rifles made by Marlin, except for about 12-13 that somehow accidentally got recorded into their records. Since Marlin was building these guns under contract to Schoverling and Daley, I believe they felt no reason to record data for them. So unfortunately the records are non existent. Marlin records on their repeating lever actions were poor, and often omit many features, or complete guns also.

[marlinman93]

Ye gads that's purty! You're gonna love shooting it - in the time you've been furnishing that one, Pops has got his .38-55 running as well. Turns out the re-barreler was nice enough to install a 32" 1-18" twist tube, get the set trigger juuuussssst right, and tap it for Unertl blocks. We haven't scoped it - yet - but it's doing just fine with 300 grain LBT spitzers and the "temporary measure" tang/17A sight combo. I'm not afraid of recoil necessarily, but the .38-55's not really having any doesn't seem to bug me at all.

Yeah. . .I don't understand how people can get hooked on meth and heroin when there's vintage single shots to play with. . .

Sounds like things are going well with your dad's Ballard. They certainly are like drugs, as they're so addicting! I don't understand drug addiction either, but I certainly understand Ballard addiction!

[Gtek]

Marlinman, VERY, VERY NICE! Thanks for keeping up with progress for all to enjoy and you have done a wonderful job and should be very proud.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, a lot of the value of these old guns is certainly due to how hard some were used, and how many were used up! I found one locally 8-9 years ago that had been in a family since WWII. The heirs who inherited it weren't interested, but knew it was valuable, and wanted to sell it. The story was that their late father was driving down the street when he saw the Ballard sitting on top of a pile of scrap metal! He pulled over and grabbed it to see what was wrong, when an elderly woman ran out of the house screaming at him to put it back! She said the gun was going to the metal drive to support the War effort, and he couldn't take it!
He told her he would go home and bring back twice it's weight in metal if she would let him save it. She agreed and took the gun in the house. He rushed home and loaded plenty of metal in his car, so there would be no doubt he was giving her enough, and took it back to make the trade. She approved, and gave him the old Ballard, which happened to have "H.M. Pope" stamped on the barrel!!!

Cody, nor Marlin has any records on Ballard rifles made by Marlin, except for about 12-13 that somehow accidentally got recorded into their records. Since Marlin was building these guns under contract to Schoverling and Daley, I believe they felt no reason to record data for them. So unfortunately the records are non existent. Marlin records on their repeating lever actions were poor, and often omit many features, or complete guns also.

You couldn't make up a story like that. They say some of the concrete on Bannerman's Island in New York harbor is reinforced with trapdoor Springfields. Not long ago there was found, in government possession in the UK, a huge hoard of front railings from houses which were donated or requisitioned to make Spitfires out of. You can still see the lead-lined sockets around some houses and the local town hall, but the cast-iron Spitfire never took the air. The idea was probably to convince people that they were all involved in something serious.

[SgtDog0311]

I wonder about "falling off" production of Ballard's in Marlin Firearm's later years, towards 1891. If JMs ended at about 18,000 and Marlin Firearm production of Ballards ended around 36,000 then you'd say 18,000 were produced in the last ten years. That would pro-rate to 1,800 per year. But production must have been falling off for them to discontinue in 1891, leaving a fellah to believe that the rate of production was not consistent in those last years. What figure you'd throw at an effort to calculate when your particular rifle was produced would be the question. I've got a 32,xxx and a 33,xxx. Being safe and applying 1,800 puts them around 1888 and 1889 I figure but could have been a year or so earlier if numbers were indeed falling off.

[marlinman93]

I wonder about "falling off" production of Ballard's in Marlin Firearm's later years, towards 1891. If JMs ended at about 18,000 and Marlin Firearm production of Ballards ended around 36,000 then you'd say 18,000 were produced in the last ten years. That would pro-rate to 1,800 per year. But production must have been falling off for them to discontinue in 1891, leaving a fellah to believe that the rate of production was not consistent in those last years. What figure you'd throw at an effort to calculate when your particular rifle was produced would be the question. I've got a 32,xxx and a 33,xxx. Being safe and applying 1,800 puts them around 1888 and 1889 I figure but could have been a year or so earlier if numbers were indeed falling off.

I think there were more than that made, as Marlin restarted serial numbers after they incorporated. There are numerous cases of JM Marlin and Marlin Firearms Co. marked Ballards having the same serial numbers. Only MFACo. Ballards above the original high serial number on JM are unique, and not duplicated.
The production definitely slowed down in the last couple years, as sales of repeating lever action Marlins increased. Not sure of those numbers, or actually how many a year might have been built in early years. Could easily be some over 1800 pcs. years in the popular high sales years, and under later.
Dutcher's book puts the high serial number he knows of at 36637 on a #3, and I've seen numerous Ballards in the 36,000 range. From what I've seen the vast majority of high serial numbers are #2 and #3 Ballard models. James Grant's book states that he felt production totals were around 39,000 and Dutcher doesn't take a guess at it. Since early production from 1875 to 1881 was only Ballards and pistols at Marlin, I'm not sure I'd want to take a guess at how many were built for sure? All I would say for certain is it's probably well above 36,367 for total JM and MFACo. production.
I don't think you're far off on your guesstimate of age John. I've got a couple #3 Ballards in the 34,xxx-36,xxx range, and can pinpoint one to it's age easily. My #3 that has an engraved presentation plaque in the stock to Lt. Charles Phillips (later Gen. Charles Phillips) was given to him on his promotion, and transfer to another artillery unit. So looking at his service records, I can tell when he was promoted and it was presented to him by his men. It is in the 32,xxx range, and his promotion was in Dec. of 1887. So any gun in that 32,xxx range will probably also be 1887 mfg.

[marlinman93]

Marlinman, VERY, VERY NICE! Thanks for keeping up with progress for all to enjoy and you have done a wonderful job and should be very proud.

Thanks! Getting closer for sure! Besides the checkering, I'm in the process of building another fitted case for this gun. I try to buy every old long case I can find cheaply at local gun shows, and stash them away. I have had a neat old alligator skin hard case for years. The interior was redone poorly many years ago in a green felt, but not fitted. I tore all the felt and blocks out, and I'm fitting dividers for this gun, scope, tools, ammo, etc. and relining it in navy blue felt. I'll also copy an old Ballard catalog image to glue inside the lid, and make it look period.
Here's the case as it was, prior to gutting the tacky interior.

[rbertalotto]

I wonder if this longer rifle case would fit our Ballards. I never measured mine. These cases are fantastic for the money. I have three of them. One for a DB Shotgun, one for a double rifle and one for a TakeDown 1894 Winchester. The leather and fit and finish is superb!

http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/C_LCA...&categoryid=71

[marlinman93]

I wonder if this longer rifle case would fit our Ballards. I never measured mine. These cases are fantastic for the money. I have three of them. One for a DB Shotgun, one for a double rifle and one for a TakeDown 1894 Winchester. The leather and fit and finish is superb!

http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/C_LCA...&categoryid=71

Very nice case, and I like dealing with Jeff's Outfitters. Unfortunately it's too new for my taste, and puts a single shot rifle with a right hand cheekpiece the wrong way. I prefer the barrel to the left, so the cheekpiece is up when the case is open.

Got the case done today. Put it in to check the fit of the gun and tools. I've got an old lift top box of .38-55 ammo, a JM Marlin marked box of factory paper patched bullets, shell indenter, Pope style re-de-primer, Ballard re-de-primer, Marlin reloading tong tool, and a can of DuPont Schuetzen powder. It all fits in, but not sure I'll put everything in the case, as some is redundant.

[rbertalotto]

beautiful!

[marlinman93]

beautiful!

Thanks Roy! That's a genuine alligator skin case I bought at a local gun show for $5 about 5-6 years ago. I try to grab all the old cases I see if they're solid, and cheap!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well the beast ought to have preferred that to giving his all for a lady's handbag.

There used to be a firearms auction house in Birmingham, UK which committed the awful act of selling old British shotguns and their cases as separate lots. You couldn't count on getting both, or if an absentee bidder, matching them up correctly. Maybe they thought they would get higher prices, or maybe their secure storage room was full of gun racks. But it seemed a terrible way to treat guns and their cases which had been together a century or more.

[marlinman93]

Well the beast ought to have preferred that to giving his all for a lady's handbag.

There used to be a firearms auction house in Birmingham, UK which committed the awful act of selling old British shotguns and their cases as separate lots. You couldn't count on getting both, or if an absentee bidder, matching them up correctly. Maybe they thought they would get higher prices, or maybe their secure storage room was full of gun racks. But it seemed a terrible way to treat guns and their cases which had been together a century or more.

I've heard of things like that, and it really gets me. I can't imgine the greed that goes with splitting up fine guns and their cases! I've got a Gye & Moncrieff British double gun in it's original hard leather case from the late 1870's. I love that the gun and case have survived together in such good condition for nearly 140 years!

[AkMike]

With no hesitation I'd get ahold of Doug Mann for this stock work. Check at the ASSRA website also.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've heard of things like that, and it really gets me. I can't imgine the greed that goes with splitting up fine guns and their cases! I've got a Gye & Moncrieff British double gun in it's original hard leather case from the late 1870's. I love that the gun and case have survived together in such good condition for nearly 140 years!

Ah yes!!! Gun and case are both beautiful. We don't hear much about Gye, perhaps because a few years later they fell on their noses with a fixed-barrel double, in which the breechblock pivoted sideways. It surely inspired the more popular French Darne, in which the breechblock lifted up.

Is the tang sight original to the gun? I wonder if there are any signs that it was intended for ball, such as slightly heavier barrels or a finer front sight?

One of these days I am going to make a case for my 24ga Pieper hammer gun. I have the oak, the piano hinge, a near-contemporary Yale lock, the nylon-free billiard table baize... The only trouble is, the quarter-sawn oak is so beautifully grained that I don't know if I will bring myself to cover it with leather.

The picture is my case label, which I must confess is a fake. I edited it from catalogue material anda share certificate for the Anciens Etablissements Pieper, which I bought on eBay.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Double post. Sorry!