hot water heater question

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, not to beat this horse to death but, I agree it is WAY cheaper to fix the one you have. Unless the tank is leaking, it is far easier/cheaper to just repair the existing tank type electric unit.
I've been running a power vented propane fired water heater for years but I like the idea of a tankless heater. Unfortunately the initial costs outweigh the savings so unless I have to replace the tank type model, there is no savings in switching to a tankless unit. The electric to gas conversation isn't as expensive but it is still not worth the cost/effort unless the current tank type unit starts to leak.
If I was starting from scratch, I would build a duel system that utilized a solar water heater backed up by a tankless heater.
A combined solar/gas would be difficult to retrofit to an existing home and even in a new home it would take years to realize the savings. The old tank type units aren't very efficient but they are cheaper and have proven to be simple workhorses. Sometimes you just have to look at the bottom line and go with what works best in the given situation.

[geargnasher]

I salvaged an A.O. Smith 50-gallon from a trash heap, cleaned an honest 5 gallons of lime scale out of it, replaced the anode rod, P-T valve, drain valve, and put it to work. That was eight years ago. We turn it off when leaving for more than a few days and it will keep water plenty warm for five straight days. I see no benefit to heating "on demand" unless that demand exceeds the capacity, which at 5Kw will keep up with a 2.5 GPM shower head indefinitely with inlet water temp at ~70F. In that same eight year period my dad has replaced his super-duper propane on-demand heater three times. Funny thing, I bought a new element when I overhauled the thing and it's still in the package hanging from the same nail in the water heater closet where I put it the day I installed the unit.

Lots of sound advice on this thread, what it boils down to is don't forget the cost of maintenance when calculating cost of operation. I could have heated a train load of water for the cost of the three units my dad bought.

Gear

[TXGunNut]

The OE 50 gallon water heater for my house started leaking a few years ago, I scratched my head a bit and replaced it with a 30 gallon heater with two elements. I only need hot water for showers and dishwashing. As long as the showers are 15-20 minutes apart I'm GTG. Keeping 50 gallons of water hot 24/7 is silly in my situation. If you had teenage kids I'd opt for twin 50 gallon water heaters, lol.

[StolzerandSons]

I installed a Bosch Aquastar(tankless, Propane) ten years ago and I've been happy as can be with it ever since. It takes it about 30-60 seconds to get hot water to the tap or shower but once it's hot it will run hot water until it runs the propane tank dry. There are very few things nicer than coming in stiff and sore from working in the cold and taking a nice long(as long as you want) hot shower to soften the muscles up.

[Plate plinker]

Curious has anybody had experience with heat pump type water heaters often referred to as hybrid because they have electrical backup heater.

[lightman]

KYCaster, thats a lot of good info. For those of you thinking of using a timer on your water heater; modern water heaters are insulated so well that its often cheaper to maintain hot water than to heat in up from cold. I would use the cost of the timer to buy a insulated blanket for it.

When we built our house I put a meter socket and a kwh/kw meter in the closet to track the usage. After living there for a little while I wrapped a piece of vinyl insulation around it, like they use in metal buildings. There was a measurable difference in the usage.

Our water causes a huge build up of scale in the bottom rather quickly. I wish they had a larger opening in bottom to make it easier to clean it out! You should see the assortment of homemade devices that I use on my shop vac to get into the bottom where the scale builds up!

[Plate plinker]

Filter, filter, filter, and or softener. Extend the life of your appliances.

[shdwlkr]

Also be aware that very soon in just a few months the new EPA mandated water heaters hit the market. think twice the cost at least and larger in height and larger diameter to accommodate the extra insulation and who knows what else they have required. I am thinking of buying one now just to have when I have the chance to get a home of my own.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

thankyou everyone especialy KYcaster with your excelent directions , I ordered an amp clamp , I have my multi meter and I will be fixing this one , I was at Menards and found they had the thermostats for 10 and 12.99 so I have one of each , menards if far enough away that it was just easier to get them both and return what i don't need later.
amp clamp should be here early next week and I will start testing , I also got a blanket for the water heater

I see the anode in the manual and will get a new anode rod

thank you very much for the education on electric water heaters learned a bunch and it makes a lot more sense now

Also I found menrads has a timer with up to 24 start stop points for 48 dollars , I think I will get that once have things working and only let it run from 5-8 am and 5-10 pm and save heating water the other 16 hours of the day that should get me some savings

[turmech]

Don't know what brand your water heater is but some anodes are not a separate item. Bradford White for example has the anode made into the cold water fill tube. Not that expensive or hard to change but not what most would think of as an anode. Most around my area stay away form magnesium as the consensus is they make the water stink. They work well at protecting the heater but smell.

[turmech]

It has already been mentioned but I'll say it again. 04/16/15 the government has mandated changes in water heater. This will mainly mean they will grow in size. If your space is tight this can be a problem. Tank capacity also are changing IIRC 50 gal will be the largest storage capacity allowed. So if you want a new one now is the time.


Also mentioned, is it is easy and inexpensive to fix. If trouble shooting it is overwhelming I would suggest just replace both element and both thermostats. I would suspect around $75 in parts. It is always best in my opinion to change the elements in pairs as well as the thermostats anyway. In my experience if I change the thermostats one year with in a few more one of the elements go.

[Petrol & Powder]

IME The elements burn out more than the thermostats fail. Back when I had electric water heaters I would always replace both elements as a set but I rarely had to replace thermostats. The exception was a low-boy (short) water heater that I had in a crawl space in one house. That thing was a nightmare and I had to replace both elements AND both thermostats to get it back on line. If I had stayed in that house I would have relocated the water heater inside the house and converted to a conventional tall model. I don't know if the short heaters are more prone to failure in general but that one sure was.

[Charley]

In terms of overall efficiency, demand heaters fueled by natural gas are the most efficient, standard gas heater second, then electric, then tankless electric. Planning on replacing my electric with a heat pump water heater when it give up the ghost. Replaced it only two years back, so it should be a while.

[mjwcaster]

It has been mentioned before, but remember total cost of ownership.

My folks have high-efficiency vented nat-gas water heaters (2) and they suck.
For the cost of a replacement blower motor you could have bought a ton of gas or even electricity.
And both of them have had the blower go bad.
One of them is discontinued, so dad managed to find either NOS or something that fit, can't remember which.
It sounds like garbage, I don't expect it to last long, and it cost several hundred dollars.
My MIL just replaced her water heater, the gas valve went bad.
Those things must be made of gold, another couple of hundred dollars for it, decided to just replace the water heater.

Again could have bought a lot of $15 elements and electricity for that much money.
A power surge just took out a couple of 20yr old electric water heaters in my apartment building.
Landlord replaced them, I would have looked into replacing all the wiring, elements and thermostats for <$100 and kept going.

I used to be on the nat gas and high efficiency bandwagon, now I am not so sure.
And I will definitely pick electric again if I ever go back on propane, especially with todays propane prices.

I have talked to several HVAC and plumbers who think the high efficiency just takes the savings from gas and puts it in their pockets for repairs.

Last one I talked to (replaced gas valve in in furnace at folks house) just laughed when I mentioned the cost of the blower motors and said I should price out the newer variable speed ones.

My folks high efficiency furnace hasn't cost too much money, but that is because we fix it ourselves.
If we had to pay for a service call every time something little went wrong with it you could have bought several furnaces.
Almost all related to that stupid blower motor, clogged drain causing condensate to back up and block vacuum sensor, bad vacuum sensor, bad blower motor etc.
And then bad ignitors, not a biggie, but if you have to pay $85-$100hr for someone to fix it, you could have kept a pilot light running for a long time.

Insulate the heater and pipes, go regular efficiency (if we could) and invest the initial savings and save on repair costs may be more cost efficient in the long run.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

one more question , how do you de lime a hot water heater


I definitely hear you on the efficiency thing

don't give up your old washer and dryer either , the new one break very reliably at 6-8 years and cost more than the initial purchase to fix ,I am still running my oil furnace , I think it was put in in 1964 that is the date on the one thermostat that just went out in December , 50 years on a part not bad , I have a freind that has a HVAC company , he is the guy who fixes rather than replaces , and he said we could use a littel more fuel and he could be a lot less busy it is always the safeties and computerized controls that go out it and seems , and most of the time better insulation of the home woudl do more than replacing the furnace with a "higher efficiency one"

If I had a chimney I could go out a standard gas with pilot light would already be done

[dragon813gt]

Also be aware that very soon in just a few months the new EPA mandated water heaters hit the market. think twice the cost at least and larger in height and larger diameter to accommodate the extra insulation and who knows what else they have required. I am thinking of buying one now just to have when I have the chance to get a home of my own.

Yep, I was going to post about this because I went to a meeting about it last week. April 15th, or right around there, is the switchover date. The physical size of the units won't be changing that much. A few inches in diameter and height to accommodate more insulation.

There are two major changes. There will be no more 80 Gallon electric water heaters. Any electric over 55 gallons will be a heat pump. These have some major issues. One is they subcool the space they're in. Depending on what's in the area you could have condensations and rust issues. And speaking of condensation. They require a drain because they have a defrost cycle. The water has to go somewhere. Personally I think they're junk because of the subcooling aspect.

On gas fired units there will be no more standing pilot models at 40 gallons. These will all have spark ignition. Natural draft will have vent dampers. So they now have to be plugged in which means no hot water when the power goes out.

I'm buying one now. I normally replace at ten years no matter what. I've seen to many homes damaged from water heaters that let out. The minimal cost for a new one is worth the peace of mind.

BTW, they are a WATER HEATER. Hot is not placed in front of water. This is one of my pet peeves.

[6bg6ga]

Go down to a home store and look at two water heaters (one gas and one electric) that are the
same gallon size and quality. Read the number on the huge yellow sticker on the side. It has
an energy calculation for a year based on standard use and some particular cost of gas or electricity,
which is printed on the yellow tag in small print. Correct their calcs up or down for your actual
electric and gas prices. Add in the fact that electric is trending WAY up (due to wind and
solar lunacy being mandated) and gas is trending flat to down, due to fracking.

The most important thing is to unscrew and replace the anode about every 5 years.
If you do this religiously your heater will last almost forever. They won't corrode as
long as the anode is there, but the anode corrodes away in about 5 years in most
situations (which is why good heates have a 5 or 6 year warranty). Once the anode
is gone, the tank starts corroding inside pretty quickly.

Takes a 7/8" or so socket to unscrew it from the top and a new one is $25-35
or so. Aluminum or magnesium, sometimes one works better depending on
local water trace elements. Ask a plumber which he recommends, altho few
replace them, so he may not know.

Bill

Electric is far more costly to run than gas is.

Secondly, no water heater will provide a long life because you get lime build up inside. Soft water does prolong a water heaters life.

Had both over the years. Spent the first 10 years with an electric with a $50 electric bill just on the water heater. Changed elements every 5 years and the thing still managed to lime up and then start leaking. Ist Gas water heater lasted 10 years even with monthly draining. Second water heater lasted 15 years with soft water.

[Yodogsandman]

GREENCOUNTRYPETE, I have an electric 50 gallon water heater that's about twelve years old that acted up kinda like yours. It turned out to be just that the reset button needed to be pushed. Both heating elements have them and if they detect any little thing, they kick off. A little bubble in the tank will trip them.

Good luck with yours...YMMV

[Petrol & Powder]

mjwcaster - I hear you and agree that total cost is key. Having used both gas and electric I have to say that the gas fired units are cheaper to operate, at least for me around here. YMMV. The cost of the propane used to heat water is trivial compared to the cost of electricity used to do the same job.
The other HUGE advantage to a gas fired unit is the ability to have hot water when the electricity is out. You still need a generator or some other source of AC power to run a power vent model but it is a minimal amount of current compared to what it takes to power those electric elements for enough time to heat up 40-60 gallons of 55 degree water.
I do think that the more complicated stuff gets the more prone to failure it becomes and the more it costs to repair when it breaks. In our constant quest for efficiency we often take something that is simple and highly functional and turn it into something complicated that does the same job at far higher initial cost; and doesn't do it as well over the life of the device. I couldn't agree with you more that one can buy a LOT of new elements and a LOT of electricity for the price of some new "highly efficient" water heater.
Something that works day in & day out for 15-20 years with minimal service has much more value to me than something that costs 2 - 4 times as much up front, fails a lot and only saves a small amount of energy. I'd rather have hot water available every day without failure than to save a little everyday but endure higher initial cost, more failures and higher repair costs.

Dragon813gt - as to calling them water heaters as opposed to Hot water heaters,; an acquaintance once yelled at a clerk for trying sell him a Hot Water Heater. He said if the water was already hot he damn sure wouldn't need to HEAT it!

[dragon813gt]

Dragon813gt - as to calling them water heaters as opposed to Hot water heaters,; an acquaintance once yelled at a clerk for trying sell him a Hot Water Heater. He said if the water was already hot he damn sure wouldn't need to HEAT it!

Like I said, it's a pet peeve of mine. When the guys working the supply houses call them one I just roll my eyes. Your acquaintance was correct in his observation. I never go as far as yelling at someone over it.

As far as cost it's relative to what your utility costs are. But as far as recovery rate it goes Oil then Gas(Natural/Propane) and then Electric. And these are directly related into how many BTUs you are firing at. Oil is putting out more BTUs then one electric element. The top element runs first and once satisfied the bottom will run. Both are not running at the same time.

I feel sorry for those on electric. 80 is the only way to have a decent recovery rate. If you have an 80 and need to replace it after April buy a smaller one and install a mixing valve on it. Run the water heater at a higher temp and mix down. A 55 gallon water heater will give you almost the same capacity as an 80 when run this way.