Alternating the use of BP and smokeless in same brass

[chg]

Does anyone use the same brass for smokeless and BP? I've always separated the brass for BP exclusively. I no longer shoot BPCR and want to use in in my lever guns with smokeless.

[Don McDowell]

Won't hurt anything, but the pressure of the smokeless loads require full length sizing every time you reload the case.

[John Allen]

I mix and match. I just always wash the blackpowder brass with a soap and water once I am home from the range. I actually take a sealed container of water and soap to the range and drop the brass in when I shoot. I then shake it up a few times. Once I get home I just get it a good wash and reuse for whatever.

[dtknowles]

Won't hurt anything, but the pressure of the smokeless loads require full length sizing every time you reload the case.

The OP did not mention cartridge or firearm but I don't see a requirement for full length sizing, it depends on the load, action type and if the ammo will be used in more than one gun. I have smokeless loads that do not require any sizing and others that I neck size only. It just depends.......

Tim

[Don McDowell]

The OP did not mention cartridge or firearm but I don't see a requirement for full length sizing, it depends on the load, action type and if the ammo will be used in more than one gun. I have smokeless loads that do not require any sizing and others that I neck size only. It just depends.......

Tim

He did say levergun, I have yet to see a levergun that did not have a chamber on the large end of things, so that full length resizing wasn't necessary when loading with smokeless. Blackpowder doesn't require the bullet pull/case neck tension for consistant ignition that blackpowder does. If you ever get the experience under your belt running blackpowder and smokeless thru the same gun, it won't take you long to figure out the cases fired with smokeless expand more than the ones with blackpowder....

[chg]

Thanks. I used to care for it as John Allen stated in his post. Figured the pressures will be higher with smokeless and just wanted to make sure all was well. I had full length resized a couple hundred a few weeks back then had second thoughts.

[dtknowles]

He did say levergun, I have yet to see a levergun that did not have a chamber on the large end of things, so that full length resizing wasn't necessary when loading with smokeless. Blackpowder doesn't require the bullet pull/case neck tension for consistant ignition that blackpowder does. If you ever get the experience under your belt running blackpowder and smokeless thru the same gun, it won't take you long to figure out the cases fired with smokeless expand more than the ones with blackpowder....

I never ran black powder in my M94 30-30 but I did load cast bullets with pistol powder charges that I only neck sized. It was all good. I have used both black powder and smokeless in my 50-70 rolling block and I never full length size, again it was all good. No problem with full length sizing, I do it for a lot of ammo I load I just think that it is a little extreme to consider it necessary. As far as pressure, smokeless powder charges do not have to be higher pressure than blackpowder, again it just depends........

Tim

[Don McDowell]

As far as pressure, smokeless powder charges do not have to be higher pressure than blackpowder, again it just depends........

Just a few minutes reading in the Lyman Blackpowder handbook, and any of the recent Lyman Reloading Handbooks, may cause some reconsideration on that statement...

[upnorthwis]

No matter what I'm shooting in the brass, I clean the necks with a brass brush in a drill press. Then tumble.

[dtknowles]

Just a few minutes reading in the Lyman Blackpowder handbook, and any of the recent Lyman Reloading Handbooks, may cause some reconsideration on that statement...

I stand by my statement and I will include that I understand that the pressure rise rate is a variable that needs to be considered. More and more we are seeing data that are pressure vs. time plots so we can understand the way that different smokeless powders perform. If you want to use low pressure smokeless powder loads in antique black powder cartridge firearms understand that powder selection is very important and in my opinion Trail Boss is not a good choice. Do you believe than a smokeless powder load has to produce higher pressures than blackpowder?

Tim

[rfd]

as long as the smokeless loads were at trap door levels, and the brass didn't require annealing, i don't see a problem or concern ... ?

besides, i don't resize because all my .45-70s are single shots. per rifle, that specific brass is fireformed and ready to load with smokeless or the holy black.

[Don McDowell]

in my opinion Trail Boss is not a good choice

Well at least you got that part right.
Have a Merry Christmas

[dtknowles]

Well at least you got that part right.
Have a Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas

[cajun shooter]

I'm sure that they have certain smokeless loads like the 38 spl. loaded with 2.7 grains of Bullseye that are very low pressure when looking at smokeless powders for pressure. I will how ever have to agree with Don as I'm a shooter since the early sixties and have had the chance to shoot both in many calibers. BP does not have any high pressure loads as you can't put enough in the case to achieve that goal. Maybe if you loaded a 45-120 with the fines from the screenings you could reach such a goal but that is one thing I would not care to try. Merry Christmas to all. Cajun Shooter

[dtknowles]

I'm sure that they have certain smokeless loads like the 38 spl. loaded with 2.7 grains of Bullseye that are very low pressure when looking at smokeless powders for pressure. I will how ever have to agree with Don as I'm a shooter since the early sixties and have had the chance to shoot both in many calibers. BP does not have any high pressure loads as you can't put enough in the case to achieve that goal. Maybe if you loaded a 45-120 with the fines from the screenings you could reach such a goal but that is one thing I would not care to try. Merry Christmas to all. Cajun Shooter

I asked "Do you believe than (sic) a smokeless powder load has to produce higher pressures than blackpowder?" I did not mean to indicate that black powder makes really high pressures, just that you can safely load some smokeless powders to low pressures so they are safe for antique firearms. The highest pressure I have seen reported for a black powder load is about 30,000 psi, I guess you could get higher pressures if you do something wrong or deliberately make a bomb. I have seen smokeless powder loads intended for use in antique firearms with pressures as low as 8,000 psi

I have 8 antique firearms that I might use smokeless powder in, three are shown in my avatar picture. I have fired those three with smokeless powder, I believe safely, I expect the pressures were running in the 11,000 psi range. If I ever can find an antique pump or lever in 44-40 that I can't resist, I will probably shoot smokeless in it. I can't talk myself into using smokeless in my 450 BPE double rifle even though the black powder loads are probably producing close to 25,000 psi but that is because loading smokeless in the huge case is more advanced than I am ready to try in such an expensive piece (not much published smokeless load data).

Tim

Cajun Shooter, you ever shoot at Honey Island?

[Chill Wills]

I agree about making use of time/pressure traces. Real data is helpful for seeing what is going on. There are smokeless powders that work on all sides of the range that Black powder(in all grades) operates in.
I have an old IMR data flyer that shows the full line of IMR powders from the era, pressure tested in the 45-70 and other cases. It is very interesting. A full load of IMR 4381 in the 45-70 is all but a squib.

[montana_charlie]

I have an old IMR data flyer that shows the full line of IMR powders from the era, pressure tested in the 45-70 and other cases. It is very interesting.
A full load of IMR 4381 in the 45-70 is all but a squib.

How old is that flyer ... or ... how long ago was 4381 discontinued?

CM

[Don McDowell]

Cajun shooter. David it's good to see you posting, hope that means you are on the road to recovery and will be back at the shooting again soon.

[Chill Wills]

How old is that flyer ... or ... how long ago was 4381 discontinued?

CM

The flyer is '70's or maybe 1980
Not sure when IMR 4831 went away. really stopped following ..... I guess I did not know it was. I have most of two 8lb cans and can't remember when I last used any. (not trying to be a smart a)

[montana_charlie]

The flyer is '70's or maybe 1980
Not sure when IMR 4831 went away.

You said 4381, earlier.
Did you intend to say 4831?

4831 is still available (I believe) but I had never heard of 4381.
Ergo my questions ...