Anyone Else Have Accuracy Problems with the 454424?

[44man]

Revolvers need a whole new line of thinking, hardest ever to work with. It took me years to get the hang of what they want.
Long ago it was the Keith, nothing else was made and the looks of a loaded round just LOOKED deadly.
Then Veral came along and the RNFP came along to show what could be done.
I still think why many like the Keith is appearance. I know for a fact that I will never make a semi wad cutter mold or buy one. They will do good from a perfect gun but I don't consider a pie plate at 50 "good."
As far as sights, get as old as me to see a fuzzball Grinch on the sights and no sights at all in dim light for deer, you sure will get a red dot or stay in bed. Scopes don't work in dim light either.
Back in my IHMSA days I could focus both sights AND the steel. In Dec I will be 77 so don't tell me you will see as good then.
When a BFR will not shoot a Keith, what do you do? It lived a good life but has died.
Nobody was shooting to 500 yards in 1956 with a .44 like I did. Only Elmer and I still love the guy. He was the reason I did what I did, took hair off a running chuck at 550 yards once, off hand, open sights. But he did not have the perfect boolit, he wanted a cut hole in paper along with a good meplat for hunting, knew the wad cutter was not the way. So his was a compromise.
Some believe the shoulder cuts meat but if you get your head on straight, the wave from the meplat pushes flesh away from the shoulder. It does NOTHING!
How can the shoulder pull a cylinder to alignment? Why not use the whole ogive?
None of you will admit it is appearance and not function.
A good alignment for the cylinder. My 330 at 200 yards, yes 1-5/16" that would make your 25 yard groups look silly. Attachment 121503
The most accurate bullets ever made are the XTP's, darn funny they are not a Keith style, those bullets died out.
Time to let them go.

[GoodAlloy]

"the Keith is Dead Today" !!
Please refrain from this slander!!!
The Keith is just as good as it ever was. The best Keith load against any other best load is a context of what load development you gravitate towards. If you just want to hit small things way out there you can work up a different design and get good results. However, if you are looking for one of the best all around designs that will actual do something when it gets there its hard to best the Keith design. I will say that the due to not wearing a gas check that the art of cast boolits loading with concerns to powder choice and alloy is more important. However, no check also means less cost and less hassle in the making and loading department, not to mention recoil. Yes checks increase friction & help powder dedagrate by increasing internal pressure but also kick alittle more. As for me if I could only have one design it would be a Keith !!!!! There are others out there that work great in one displine or another. But show me one design that can do it all very well and it will be a Keith !!

[GoodAlloy]

Comparing Boolits to XTP's has no context. Condoms are a whole different situation.
If you are wanting the recoil and muzzle bast of the 330 grs boolit then yes it will out perform a 250 grs Keith or anything else for that matter due to its B.C. and mass. Show me a 250grs of another design that will perform as such. It will not. Now if you had a 330 grs Keith and ran it accordling that would be interesting!!
Oh and by the way the shoulder is not there to cut meat it is there to scrape carbon and debris from the bore with ever pass and cut nice holes in paper. As for dynamic fluid movement yes the meplat does the work as it does with any design. The Keith also allows more powder capacity due to alot of wieght out front.
I rarely shoot at 25 yards. However, my Keith does me well at 100 with 1.5" groups and quart oil bottles at 200. I believe that the difference in opinion is due to what you want from your revolver as opposed to what someone else wants from theirs. Not everyone wants to use 330 grs of pb+sn at pop.

[44man]

"the Keith is Dead Today" !!
Please refrain from this slander!!!
The Keith is just as good as it ever was. The best Keith load against any other best load is a context of what load development you gravitate towards. If you just want to hit small things way out there you can work up a different design and get good results. However, if you are looking for one of the best all around designs that will actual do something when it gets there its hard to best the Keith design. I will say that the due to not wearing a gas check that the art of cast boolits loading with concerns to powder choice and alloy is more important. However, no check also means less cost and less hassle in the making and loading department, not to mention recoil. Yes checks increase friction & help powder dedagrate by increasing internal pressure but also kick alittle more. As for me if I could only have one design it would be a Keith !!!!! There are others out there that work great in one displine or another. But show me one design that can do it all very well and it will be a Keith !!

My large caliber boolits are PB but NOT a Keith style. I shoot PB from the .475 and .500, shot to max. I designed the boolits and made my own molds. They have done as small as 1/2" at 100 yards and I am the loose nut. I just can't see or hold as good anymore.
I have shot the PB from my 45-70 revolver and the .454 at over max. yet a Keith will NOT work. Sorry, no Keith will match a good boolit. It kills no better then a WLN either. When you get over 62 years with a revolver, get back to me.
It is not slander, it is old ideas that no longer fit.

[GoodAlloy]

I see your piont with all the statements you have made. You have spent alot of time and effort in you endevors that much we all know. I just think that the Keith is a good all around boolit. If trying to find a specialty boolit for a special circumstance & job takes you in a differnet direction. Then it is awesome that you can acheive what you have! But for my money for the average guy that wants a boolit to pretty much do it all and do it well, with a off the shelf design. I will stick with the Keith. As for "old ideas that no longer work" I disagree, the Keith is as good now as it was at the start, and it is still working just fine in my book.
Good luck on all your future endevors!! Keep up the good work!!

[DougGuy]

Think about it.. You have a cylinder throat, a forcing cone, and rifling. The ojive of the RF boolits are not nearly as sharp and no corner edge exposed like the Keith, it provides a much more practical approach to the transition from cylinder to barrel than any square shouldered design, and it has a longer bearing surface which stabilizes better than a short sided boolit. If any of the ojive of the RF boolit gets damaged by the forcing cone it would just blend it into the boolit below where it took the hit instead of wiping off 40% of the side of the boolit into the lube groove.

Not saying that Keith cannot be made to shoot accurately, but I have MUCH better luck with the RF than the KT.

I really couldn't give a rodent's hindside what my pistol does at 100yds on a plate, if it isn't putting meat in the freezer what's the use?

As far as the OP of this thread, I think he has worn out about everything there is to try with getting a 424454 to shoot from his already dimensionally corrected Vaquero, THE GUN is saying I DO NOT LIKE THIS BOOLIT! Time to try the RF or RNFP and see what it does!

[35 Whelen]

I haven't because I wanted to use a Keith bullet for hunting.

[DougGuy]

I haven't because I wanted to use a Keith bullet for hunting.

Have you seen any of the recovered boolits from the RF molds? Quite impressive! You shoot a perfectly suited alloy for the twist in the Ruger barrel, soft enough to dig a fingernail in, and the RF design works extremely well in both my Rugers, .44 and .45 calibers. I have always said there is a direct relationship between alloy hardness, twist, and velocity. When you hit on the good combo, the GUN itself will tell you that you have found the secret. I hit on it with mine, you will know when you get there because it will be a night and day difference. Instant gratification. The RF will kill em SO DEAD it ain't funny. I don't think a Keith has any advantage at all over the wide meplat of the RF boolit. The wound channel is the size of a golfball generally, and there is a pressure wave in front of every boolit, I have heard it said that the pressure wave in front of the Keith pushes flesh away from the shoulder. I guess this would also really depend on the velocity of the Keith, at less than supersonic it may not exhibit such action.

One of my guys that brought two NM Rugers for cylinder throating and 11° forcing cone recut and polish loves the Lee 255 RF, his guns and yours are set up perfectly for this design. I would find some samples and give it a shot. Or two. Or twenty. Pun intended. I think you may be quite pleased with the results. Felix or other soft lube recommended.

[FlatTop45LC]

All I have shot in my Flat Top 45 LC is the Keith. With 9 grains of Unique it shoots well enough I am able to break a clay pigeon every shot at 50 yards in field positions.

I don't need any better....

[Char-Gar]

I am a handgun shooter of the old school, holding the handgun in my hands and standing on two legs, and not some kind of bench rest shooter looking for the smallest possible groups at distances I don't shoot. Frankly I see no reason to try and turn a handgun into a rifle, but what do I know. Different folks see things different.

Back to the issue at hand. I an very satisfied with the accuracy I get from Lyman 454424 and RCBS 270 SAA. I cast both bullets out of ACWW and size them to fit the charge hole throats, either .452 or .454. Powder charges with both are either 20/4227, 8.5/Unique or 6.2/Bulleye. These days, I mostly use the Bulleye charge.

I don't worship the Keith bullet but have used it for many years and it does all I want and need a bullet to do out of a 45 Colt revolvers. I see no reason to buy and new mold for a different design, that might produce a little better accuracy that I don't need and can't use.

[35 Whelen]

Lots of different subjects at once here....

The revolver, like the other dozen or so I own, WILL shoot Keith bullets, I've proven that many, many times. Last year, my first season to deer hunt with a revolver cartridge, (.44 Special) I killed three deer with Keith type bullets. Here's the would in a shoulder of the last buck I killed last season:



So in my mind, there's no need to try anything else.

I do have a .44 caliber RNFP mould:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/...432200GrRF.jpg

While I haven't tested it extensively, it hasn't shown nearly the accuracy as Keith bullets. Wanting to use it for a practice bullet, I've tried it in my primary Uberti SA and my CA Bulldog. It just didn't shoot nearly as well as any of the SWC's I cast and load. It did shoot fairly well in a Uberti 1866 rifle I owned for a while though.

I'm a realist; iron sighted revolvers are short range tools of opportunity that can be used for hunting to maybe 100 yds....at most, but 50 or so yards is much more realistic. As such I have no interest in developing loads that shoot tiny groups from a bench rest. For that type shooting, I'll grab a rifle. If I can shoot fist-sized groups at 50 yds. from a field position, I'm happy because that type accuracy will easily work for deer hunting. I have a 200 yd. steel target here at the house and have become fairly proficient at hitting it with my revolvers, but that's just for fun.

I'm also a minimalist and prefer to have two good bullets and loads for my revolvers; one for practice and general loafing in the woods, and one for hunting. I also want the two bullets to have enough visible difference so I can tell my loads apart at a glance. I've accomplished this with my .44 Specials by using an NOE 429421 for practice/field carry and either an RCBS 44-250KT or Miha SWCHP for deer hunting. Works perfectly. My Vaquero shoots wonderfully with the Miha 45-270 in a 283 gr. SWCHP, but that's way too much bullet for shooting targets, practice and loafing in the woods. That's why I bought the 454424 mould. The only thing I haven't tried with the 454424 is a softer alloy down in the 10 Bhn range. That may be next on the list.

35W

[Char-Gar]

Well, you certainly have been successful in your hunting with a handgun and your range and theory are spot on with mine. The idea of having two bullets visual different has lots of merit.

While this may draw fire from some quarters and support from others, I have never found the need for bullets harder than Bh 10 unless we go to full snort magnum pressure and velocity. That means 99.99% of my shooting is done with Bh 9 or 10 bullets, which is what my ACWW give.

I do not water drop bullets and don't think the idea has much merit for general shooting. It does enable a fellow to handle his bullet quicker is that is a concern which it is not for me. Softer most often is better for the average shooter. However I am all for a fellow doing whatever he wants. The problem comes in when folks get stuck in their particular rut and think everybody has to do it a certain way.

Good luck and I see no reason why your 454424 Keith at Bh 10 should not shoot well in your pistol over 8 to 8.5 grains of Unique, sized to fit your charge hole throats.

[44man]

My reason for accuracy is because almost every shot at deer is off hand. Add poor groups to my shakes and it is luck. By the boolit going to the sights, I can hold under 6" at 100 on average. Many times better depending on the day. Some days a little water bottle at 100 is easy, other days I need a gallon jug. It only gets worse. So accuracy is all I worry about because it takes me out of what the gun will do. I trust the gun but not me. i have taken deer over 120 yards off hand. But a 4" pattern at 25 would keep me from even pulling the trigger. If there is no confidence in the gun I would limit shots to hand shake distances. If you shoot 4" or more at 25, a 100 yard deer should never be tried even with a rest or scope.
One day a friend was here and we were done shooting but I had three shots left for my .44 so I shot my steel plate at 100, off hand. Yeah, 3/4" for the three.Attachment 121527 it is confidence that allows hunting and if you miss it is only YOU.
We are weak for sure and don't ever ask me to do it on demand, that is stupid, but there are those days. Yet it comes to what you make your gun do first. I swear I could toss my revolver on the bench and it would hit if it went off.
You like a keith, fine but have you EVER shot 3/4" at 100 off hand?
My loads work in the SRH and any Ruger. My friend has a new Ruger Hunter and he shot every group at 1/2" at 50 yards while we sighted the gun. My friends shoot better then me.
We finished an IHMSA shoot and were fooling with a cardboard chicken at 200 meters. I had two shots left for my .44 and shot them, Creedmore, open sights. Attachment 121532 Hit low but to hit a chicken in the leg at 200 meters is crazy. Ever shoot at a pepper speck? No, I cant do it anymore but I have memories you will never have. I used to shoot pop cans from the bench at 200 yards with a SRH.
No, a Keith never did that.

[44man]

The other holes in the chicken were from my 10" Wichita 7R, open sights, Creedmore. Yeah, the revolver did better.

[35 Whelen]

You know, on second thought, I could buy the inexpensive Lee 255 gr. RNFP and at least try it. It'd be a fairly inexpensive experiment!

35W

[Vulcan Bob]

You know, on second thought, I could buy the inexpensive Lee 255 gr. RNFP and at least try it. It'd be a fairly inexpensive experiment!

35W

On a whim I bought the Lee 255 gr RNFP, with my alloy mix it came out to 265gr and just big enough to size to .452. It has a nice big meplat but the shallow lube grooves made me think that it would not work out in the longer barrel guns. Well as it turns out with SPG lube the dang cheap thing shoots nicely and dose not lead the bore in revolvers. It does run out of lube in my 24 inch rifle barrel about three inch's from the muzzle and has very light leading, nothing a few swipes with a dry bore brush doesn't remove. This made me rethink the whole Lee mould thing.

[9.3X62AL]

I do not and did not argue that the ogival-form bullet doesn't/won't facilitate systemic alignment. That is empirically obvious. I make use of round flatnose castings in my several levergun calibers I load for.......VERY user friendly in the k'boy rifles.......and in my 44 Magnum levergun I can realize the "ideal" of feeding sideiron and carbine the same ammunition, and that ammunition feeds and shoots well in both systems.

A lot of shooters seem to think that Veral Smith rendered Elmer Keith's design obsolete. I don't think there is a bit of difference between the two bullet designs as a game-taker or man-stopper. Both make use of a wide meplat to do their work, and for hunting I cast both as softpoints to enable potential expansion. I want it all--wide meplat, large caliber, heavy-for-caliber weight, and the potential for expansion. Smithbullets and Keithbullets both do fine work, I won't disparage either design.

[DougGuy]

You know, on second thought, I could buy the inexpensive Lee 255 gr. RNFP and at least try it. It'd be a fairly inexpensive experiment!

35W

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. Either the mold or get some samples from one of the members here and just see what the gun thinks of them. May I recommend 50/50+2% for a BHN of about 10-12? Just soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail. For some reason, this style boolit at that hardness seems to really click with the Ruger rifling and twist in my guns.

P.S. that RNFP, at the hardness I described, is one VERY good hunting boolit!

[44man]

Elmer knew what it took to kill and the meplat was right. That alone was one of the best things and he did a lot for us hunters.
My favorite boolit in 56 and for years was the original 429421. For the .357 it was the Thompson 358156 HP. I can't deny that both shot as good as I could shoot. I wish I still had the molds.
It was not until I started IHMSA that things changed for me. I was as bad as the rest of the revolver shooters, darn lucky to hit half out of 40.
I went to work with a lot of thought while loading. Imagination did a lot as I kind of seen what was going on. Soon I was shooting 38's to 40's and went from unclassified to International class very fast. I shot every shoot in Ohio and into PA, even went to Quantico a few times. Kim was a Marine so I planned visits around a shoot.
Moved here and only one club shot IHMSA, long drive and got too expensive. Piedmont Sportsman Club in VA. Met some of the best shooters and people ever. An experience most of you missed.
All is now put into hunting and the same things I learned are still what makes a revolver shoot. Cast or jacketed, same things apply. I still can't make a Keith shoot as good as a boolit that just has the ogive blend to the drive bands.
Elmer lived in the day of paper punching and to cut a nice hole made measurements easier. It is why he made the shoulder. The meplat is what made the boolit a good hunting thing. He was right on for his day.
I still love the look of a Keith boolit load. It just seems right.
Few here are old enough to have Elmer's influence on their shooting. But face it, he would be shooting LBT's today if he was with us.

[Wally]

I have shot many .44 Caliber Keith 429421 bullets....however I have discovered that the Lyman 429667 240 RNF shoots just as well, if not better. The Metaplat is slightly larger and this is a "self-centering" style bullet. It is quite accurate in all my .44 Caliber guns.