Can I use straight WW or do I need to make a "mix"

[Shuz]

In my experience, plain wheel weights work just fine, but I have noticed better fillout when I add a little tin. Therefore my choice is wheel weights plus 1% tin. Air cooled hardness is in the Bhn 9 to 11 area and heat treated they get to Bhn 22. Air cooled works great in revolvers and heat treated works great when velocities climb.--Shuz

[American]

.. Air cooled hardness is in the Bhn 9 to 11 area and heat treated they get to Bhn 22. ...

This thread is just full of great stuff a novice like myself needs to know.

Any idea of the hardness of WW boolits that are dropped into water from the mold?

[robertbank]

About the same as heat treating them. I do this for all my bullets only because I find it handy. Just make sure your bucket is set away from your melter or melting pot. Water and lead do not mix and things can get real exciting real fast when water meets molten lead. I fill my bucket about half full so there is no chance of water splashing any where near my casting pot.

Take Care

Bob

[mechdriver]

I followed someones advise of cutting a slit in an old towel and placing it over my quenching bucket. This stops most of the splash.

[Whip]

I use a cardboard box pushed in a little with a split in it, over my bucket. I tap my mold and the bullets pop out and roll into the crack and in to the bucket .

[Gohon]

Like the others said, the tin is really only added to help mold fillout. Anything over 2% doesn't do any good. .

I've heard and read this before and it is a little confusing. According to Lyman if you take 9 pounds of WW and add 1 pound of 50/50 solder you end up with 10 pounds of material that is equal to Lyman #2 at 14-15 BHN. Somebody has to be wrong but who?

[robertbank]

Tin does harden the alloy but not as much and only to a certain point then it does little to no good to add more. As others have posted adding tin does improve mold fill out.

Both camps are right.

Take Care

Bob

[Gohon]

But that's where the confusion comes in. According to my Lyman book #2 alloy has a BHN of 15 and straight WW has a BHN of 9. However by making the mix in my last post which results in a 92/4/4 mix, Lyman states you will end up with a #2 alloy mix, or at least very close to it. Thats an increase of 6 BHN which seems like a substantial increase to me. I'm thinking if I can end up with a #2 alloy at 15 BHN by just adding tin to WW then I have no need to ever water drop or heat treat bullets again.

[robertbank]

It isn't "necessary" some of us drop our water bullets out of habit, others to get harder bullets for a specific purpose. Not sure how the BHN values increase relative to each other but going from 9 to 15 is an increase in six. If I get to 29 by water dropping them I am increasing the BRN by 20....much wider spread.

I prefer to water quench my rifle bullets, and those destined for my .357 and 9MM. When I cast I am typically casting three molds at a time. Rather than air cool my .45acp bullets and water drop the others I just plunk them all in water. Doesn't seem to bother my .45acp results so I just keep doing what is comfortable. Works for me and the paper targets and cans I shoot at don't seem to care either.

Take Care

Bob

[Gohon]

I think I should have just left off that last line as it seemed to distract from my point. Which was, it is wrong to say that tin is really only added to help mold fill out. I think it would be correct in saying anything over 2% doesn't do any good as far as mold fill out goes . Unless Lyman is way off base, tin can and does play a significant roll in bullet hardness. Another example Lyman gives is pure lead has a BHN of 5 but when you add enough tin to change this to 10-1 (91% lead & 9% tin) then the BHN is increased to 11.5. Most likely I suspect the lack of using tin is the factor of cost and other means less costly are more desirable. But, to someone new to this like myself it is easy to be confused or misled when I/they see a statement that tin is only used for fill out and over 2% is wasting. Not trying to argue here but trying to to stay on the right track of a hobby I'm really starting to enjoy.

[robertbank]

No problem my friend. Aside from the fact our hobby will drive you crazy from time to time it really is quite enjoyable. WW alone are good enough for most applications I have found. Used to add solder but now don't bother. WW work just fine in every application I have tried to date. Try making your own lube using the Formula for Felix lube. Once you get past that step you will be hooked for life.

Take Care

Bob

[44 flattop]

Hello,
I have been casting for almost 40 years. If there is one mistake that most casters make (IMO), it is thinking you need a harder bullet to stop leading and improve accuracy. One lesson I learned from my father back in the late '60's was to 1/40 was fine for pistols, 1/16 was good for rifles. For my own part I've found that WW's +25% pure lead is great up to 2000fps.

For hunting heating treating bullets is not the best bet since the bullet becomes much more fragile. I like pure WW's +1% and 25% lead for best results.

Hey Glenn F, that 429640 that you converted to a PB and sold to me is working out fine!

44

[KYCaster]

I've heard and read this before and it is a little confusing. According to Lyman if you take 9 pounds of WW and add 1 pound of 50/50 solder you end up with 10 pounds of material that is equal to Lyman #2 at 14-15 BHN. Somebody has to be wrong but who?

Gohon: Don't be too quick to accept everything you read as gospel. The Lyman book I have (don't know which edition, the cover's been gone forever) says #2 alloy is 90 parts lead, 5 parts Tin and 5 parts Antimony. They said then, "A mixture that compares favorably to Lyman #2 alloy may be concocted by melting down a few items which are readily available."....

5 1/2 lbs. WW, 1 lb. 50/50 bar solder and 3 1/2 lbs. lead. Do the math and that's 88.9% Pb, 6%Sb and 5% Sn.

That's somewhat different than what they're recommending now. 9 lb. WW and 1 lb. 50/50 gives you 87.5% Pb, 7.25% Sb and 5.25% Sn. That's not quite 90-5-5. And even further from the 90-4-4 that you quoted in another post.


You also said, "...tin can and does play a significant roll in bullet hardness. Another example Lyman gives is pure lead has a BHN of 5 but when you add enough tin to change this to 10-1 (91% lead & 9% tin) then the BHN is increased to 11.5." This is quite a bit different than my experience, it's generally accepted here(somebody is sure to correct me if I'm wrong) that ACWW has a BHN of ~12. I've found that Pb/Sn binary alloys won't get there without the addition of Antimony or Arsenic. The caveat here is that, most of the metals that we scrounge for our hobby do contain significant ammounts of Sb and As, so if your pure Pb comes from roof flashing, cable sheath, stick on WW, etc., then you're adding these hardening agents to your alloy.

My point to all this is...don't get too caught up in "absolutes". Seems to me, Lyman has finally found that the difference between 90-5-5 and 87.5-7.25-5.25 is insignificant. There are too many different opinions to call any one of them right.

Bottom line is....whatever works for you.

Jerry

[Gohon]

All right you guys................... you're gonna have me up half the night again researching before I can get some peaceful sleep. Here is where all this started rolling in my head. A few weeks ago I was casting some 30 caliber 170 gainers. With about every 5# of WW I was throwing in 2-3 ounces of 95/5 solder. Everything goes fine and I was happen with the results of my casting that night. Then I weighed some of the bullets and instead of 170 grains as called for my the mould, they were 160-161 grains. That was okay with me but I wondered why. So reading through the Lyman book I found what I posted in earlier threads, and also ran into a section that listed what approximate weight would be from moulds using different alloy mixtures. Low and behold the book showed a 170 grain mould would cast somewhere around 161 grains using #2 alloy. So what I was trying to decide was did I unwittingly make up a mixture of #2 allow using 3 ounces of 95/5 (tin/antimony) to 5# WW. If so then I would think I would be safe to assume the hardness was 14-15 BHN since I don't have a hardness tester. This would be perfectly satisfying for me for I don't need to go higher than that particular hardness. Just for the record these will be loaded in a 30-30 to about 1900-2000 fps.

[Dennis Eugene]

I followed someones advise of cutting a slit in an old towel and placing it over my quenching bucket. This stops most of the splash.

try floating styrafoam peanuts on your water bucket to keep splashing down to zero when water quinching bullits. Dennis Eugene

[mroliver77]

WW have a lot less antimony in them than they used too. Keeping the tin cntent the same as the antimony makes for strong boolits as it helps "bind" the antimony. Heat treting does not make a boolit more fragile or brittle, it just makes it harder. Water will not explode if dropped on the surface of lead it will sizzle and evaporate.(I have done it to test) Steam explosions happen when water gets carried below the surface. I keep my quench bucket to the left of and a foot below my lead pot. Nothing covering it and a towel down in the water with a hole to slow boolits. Very little splash even with a 6 cavity .45 cal mold. You need to get boolits in the water very quickly when the mold opens.
J