simple Hi-Tek coating

[HI-TEK]

I was comparing the red powder against the red copper. Two different coatings. One with metallic and one without.

I don't sweat the color on the rag because they shoot fine. I also coat thick. I use 5ML of the powder/acetone to coat about 2 to 2 1/2 lbs of boolits.

The 10mm targets are 18 rds per target fired at 25 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy

The 45 ACP targets are 14 rds per target fired at 20 yds from the sitting to gauge field accuracy.

The stuff is legit, and I hope the US dealers sell large jars as I have no interest in ready mix packets.

Here are the different ratios of acetone to powder:

Love Life,

Thanks much for your clarifying things on the different coatings you posted and your vote of confidence.

I have had some discussions with US dealer about pack sizes for powdered versions.
This is a new area for all of us.
The economics with packing small packs to larger packs is always a consideration.

May be all who are interested should weigh in and give the US dealers some hints as to what is required, so they can then decide direction from the demand of the market.

I would like to make some comments about your coating method.
I am not trying to knock it and am happy you are using more.
The reality is that you do not need a "thick coating" for the Hi-Tek to work OK.
Final finished coating needs to have just enough cover to provide a thin film to separate alloy from barrel.
Any "extra" is merely a cosmetic finish without providing much additional benefits.

The mere fact that you are coating "thick" may be some of the reasons why you may get some problematic areas showing up.


The coating is very insulating. When applying heat, the thicker coats reduce heat transfer into the alloy, and you may get much higher temperatures outside coating than inside with the alloy.

I can guess, that you may get up to 15-20 degrees difference with alloy temperature to outside coating temperature at any specific time.

This temperature "difference" can be much more evident with all the metallic coatings, as they are much more heat insulating than plain coloured coatings and is more evident with all the metallic coatings.

From the colour of your Red Copper, it seems that it is much darker in the picture than what I have seen previously. I expect this colour, with longer & higher temperature cooking.

For experimentation purposes, can I request that you have a go at coating with much thinner coating applications, (two coats) and compare results to what you are now doing.
This should provide some comparative information, and may also save you some money as well.

OOOOOPs I just may have reduced sales.....lol..lol

[Love Life]

I do coat thick, and it is solely for cosmetic reasons. I do not like to load ugly boolits that look like they have an STD!!

I started at 12 minutes and moved up in 1 minute increments all the way to 24 minutes. It was pretty exhausting to be honest. At all time settings, the coating passed the smash test and succeeded in the shooting test. Same for cook temp testing. I settled on 18 minutes for 40/45 caliber bullets and 16 minutes for 35/38 caliber bullets. <---This is all with the powdered HI-TEK. I need to continue testing to how long I can bake before failure, but I really enjoy shooting more than testing...plus after all the testing all you get is naysayers doo doing all over the results without chipping in any effort.

I also coat heavily with the liquid coating system, but only because I don't like ugly boolits. I have it on the highest authority (with absolutely no proof or research) that pretty boolits shoot better than ugly boolits.

I don't know if the powder I have is red copper. It is more fire engine than anything and has no metallic qualities. The pictures of boolits I posted have been twice coated with powdered HI-TEK using ratios 1:4, 1:5, and 1:6 Powder:Acetone with TBS being the measurements. If I coated more boolits at a time it would be thinner, but once again, I like pretty boolits.

As for packaging, I much prefer a jar over premeasured amounts. How does the powder seller know how many boolits I want to coat? Psh on that noise...

[Love Life]

In reference to heat and coating thickness. All of my ratios went through the same bake time and temp testing. All passed and shot fine. The 1:6 actually coated thinner than I like on the 1st coat, but the way this stuff coats, the 2nd coat provided the coverage I wanted for pretty boolits.

[mcyrier]

Rec'd my first batch of black Hi-Tec paint today in the mail from Gateway Bullets. They are quick ship and very easy to deal with. I was ready and set up with the equipment and had read over these posts. Using a 45 acp RNFP 200 gn bullet I cast myself, and following the instructions from Gateway (I didn't read them, I just glanced-hate to lose my man card) the first coating passed the smash and wipe test.


Smash Test

After second coat

And then they were sized and put in a case.

I'm going to the range to try them out tomorrow . I'll report back what happens.

[Love Life]

Wonderful!!

[runfiverun]

still paying attention.

so this IS a cross linked polymer coating....
if so is there anything [ph neutral or above] being used to help the crosslink ?
or is it all heat dependent?

[Gateway Bullets]

Rec'd my first batch of black Hi-Tec paint today in the mail from Gateway Bullets. They are quick ship and very easy to deal with. I was ready and set up with the equipment and had read over these posts. Using a 45 acp RNFP 200 gn bullet I cast myself, and following the instructions from Gateway (I didn't read them, I just glanced-hate to lose my man card) the first coating passed the smash and wipe test.

Thanks for the compliment! If they fail when when shooting, then TURN IN YOUR MAN CARD!!!! lol lol lol

[HI-TEK]

still paying attention.

so this IS a cross linked polymer coating....
if so is there anything [ph neutral or above] being used to help the crosslink ?
or is it all heat dependent?

The reply is Yes and no.
Sorry.
1, Polymer is a hybridised system not a cross linked coating.
2. Yes, heat is factor for cure and curing density as well as cross linking.
3. Every thing that is required for system to work correctly, has been included already, and, "additions" of ingredients to promote crosslinking may or may not improve polymer properties.

[mcyrier]

Gateway Bullets gave a tip to cool the boolits between the coats by putting a fan on them. In the thumbnail of my post above I rotated the fan head parallel with the floor and set the tray on top of it. Worked great for air circulation.

[Ausglock]

Well. Second coat was applied and left to dry for 1 day. This was because I was busy with work and didn't to it yesterday

The second coat was baked for 20 minutes and 2 bullets removed every minute from 10 minutes to 20.

Long story short.......all bullets smashed and wiped fine. even the 20 minute bullets.

So the bullets first coat has actually been baked for 40 minutes!!!

I sized these and they size fine. Smash after sizing is still 100% perfect.
So... does anyone that coats for rifles with red copper want to try my 20 minute process for rifle bullets and check accuracy against 10 minute bake bullets??

[runfiverun]

thank's HI-TEK.
I was wondering.
I work with cross linkers quite frequently and temperature is important but so is the PH, in fact we control the relax of the fibers, the cross-link, and the crash through ph.
we also have to change our catalyst [for the ph crash [break] depending on temperature.
funny thing about that is the catatlyst actually changes the PH of the mix itself so you have to change the buffering agent to counter act it so that the ph will be high enough to get a good crosslink.
that's after using a buffering agent to lower the ph enough for the fibers to relax and straighten out.

I know with the poly's you actually lay a strand[s] out and the fibers do actually form a type of cross weave pattern once they relax.
and then they turn hard from the temperature drop.
short version.

[prickett]

The information on cook times is very interesting. Frankly, I'm surprised that something that has been in use on this board, hasn't been tested this way before. Just out of curiosity, where did the whole "cook it longer than 12 minutes/cook it at too high of a temperature and it becomes brittle come from"? Seems like these tests are dispelling that. Did someone actually experience brittleness or was it pure speculation?

[Ausglock]

Prickett. It came from " Lets see what happens" idea.
Commercial casters are after quick turn over. so all coating and limited testing was focused on their process as stated above by HI-TEK.

But.. this has only been tested once by me on the red/copper coating. I am going to do the same for the non-metallic black coating. Also the colour does darken a large amount. The red/copper went a dark brown.
Also the extra bake time will not affect hobby caster/coaters, but will not be of use to commercial casters as time is money.

This red/copper was the new powdered DRY-TEK coating that is a totally different beast to the liquid coating that has been in use for over 20 years. I intend to try the same thing with liquid red/copper coating to see how it goes.

The ones that have been baked for the 20 minutes are getting loaded and fired tomorrow out of my SV racegun.

Anyone want to try this with rifle bullets?????

[SpotHound]

Yeah, I do, will Joe send some to Perth. I will put them through a 30/30.

[220]

I've run into a problem that I know has been raised before but I don't know the answer.
Just retested some boolits I coated around 3 months ago, at the time and a week or 2 later they passed the smash test with flying colours, they are now flaking when smash tested.
What has happened in the months between? Obviously something has or they wouldn't have passed to start with.
This is with the blue/green and gold metallic although far worse with the blue/green.

[Gateway Bullets]

Interesting..... I spilled a box of black 45-200 swc in the bed of my truck about 6 months ago and they have been there ever since. I blew off the dust and they look and test just fine.

[prickett]

I've run into a problem that I know has been raised before but I don't know the answer.
Just retested some boolits I coated around 3 months ago, at the time and a week or 2 later they passed the smash test with flying colours, they are now flaking when smash tested.
What has happened in the months between? Obviously something has or they wouldn't have passed to start with.
This is with the blue/green and gold metallic although far worse with the blue/green.

Hmmm, maybe the same tests need to be run, but waiting a couple of months before doing the smash tests to see if brittleness occurs over time.

[HI-TEK]

The information on cook times is very interesting. Frankly, I'm surprised that something that has been in use on this board, hasn't been tested this way before. Just out of curiosity, where did the whole "cook it longer than 12 minutes/cook it at too high of a temperature and it becomes brittle come from"? Seems like these tests are dispelling that. Did someone actually experience brittleness or was it pure speculation?

Hi,
Apology for my long reply, but you did raise a good question, and, hopefully you will appreciate my response.
The brittleness was in fact a historical problem , (20 plus years ago), when product was first started to be developed.
The brittleness warning was left on the data sheet, because some folk still want to coat very thick coatings, and advice is there, so people realise that it is a very hard coating, and that is also why we advise people, to use as thin coating as possible to do the job.

However, over the years, due to the volume market demand, we further developed these coatings, so that there was a balance of hardness, flexibility and adhesion.

As production speed/rate was the prime aim, and for product to be suitable for high volume market here, we have not returned to do testing, to see how the newer generation systems behaved, as there appeared, no real reason to simply continue baking until destruction was achieved.

Further, we used various materials, that were affected by prolong heating, and resin also darkened which then made finished product less pretty.
The discolouration on over baked products still seemed to work OK, but people complained that product was "not the same colour as before", "it is no good" and on it went.

People also did not like the darker coloured product, so it affected sales.
Some colours simply either changed drastically or disappeared.

Because of "picky" buyers demands, we used the "final colour" that was acceptable and pretty, as a guide "indicator" reference point , and, we can also see when heating or excessive cooking has occurred.
(Quality control)

As there is a huge demand apparently in the US for "Harder coating" approaching Jacketed hardness, we have developed a harder resin with intent to try to satisfy market pressures.
Product was sent to the US in commercial volumes.

Quite frankly, until recently, we have never thought to try cooking these coatings, for extended periods.

What is known, that curing product at 200C for 10 minutes, at that point we set the polymer adequately suitable for majority of applications.
We also know, at that point, the polymer is still not 100% fully cured or "hardened".

We also advise, that the polymer has built in "reserve" property, that allows high energy, from friction heat and gun powder heat for the coating to further "react" to those conditions and cope, but not fuse or not melt nor become sticky and do not bond to bore..

The rational used now, is to examine and determine, at what point the product will being to fail and also take away some of the myths that have developed.

The other "cooking tests" we can conduct is to subject the coated alloy to 210C and 220C for 10 minute periods, to determine what happens.
This results should provide commercial casters and hobbyists, a "window" of time frame at specific time/cure conditions, without having to bake for extended periods which slows production and increases costs.

As Ausglock said, now, that we know, that what he did, has been found OK and apparently not damaged coating adhesion, these results now reverse/eliminate some concerns about product failing due to over cooking reasons.

Again apology for long reply.

[HI-TEK]

I've run into a problem that I know has been raised before but I don't know the answer.
Just retested some boolits I coated around 3 months ago, at the time and a week or 2 later they passed the smash test with flying colours, they are now flaking when smash tested.
What has happened in the months between? Obviously something has or they wouldn't have passed to start with.
This is with the blue/green and gold metallic although far worse with the blue/green.

Can you please advise what alloy you used?
It may shed some light on why there may be long term loss of adhesion of coating.

[Ausglock]

My next testing will be with liquid coating.
I have coated some of the same bullets with a 5-1-7 mix of Brick red coating. these will get baked tomorrow for 20 minutes with the same bullet selection process.

I am also going to try some that are baked at 220Deg C for 6 minutes to see if that works.
If it does, I'll go to 250 DEG C for 4 minutes.
Why???
Just for schits N Giggles to see what happens.