M1 junk parts?

[MtGun44]

Great news. How much did you have to pay, if you don't mind saying?

Bill

[lancem]

Being a friend of a friend, $40 for the pair. Hardly beer money for the time he put into it if you ask me. Needless to say I feel really lucky.

[MtGun44]

That is a wonderful deal. My bet is commercially it would be $100 or more for each, but that is
just a pure guess based on labor hours with specialized equipment, I don't really have a baseline
of prices to work from.

Bill

[zuke]

Success! Went over today and picked up the receivers, both were done and tested to a Rockwell of 60. Brought them back to my buddies and bead blasted them clean and they are now ready to be built back into working rifles. I'm really happy the way this worked out and will post some pictures when they are finished.

Pic's after the heat treat would have been nice, even pic's now.
Kinda like taking pic's of a pregnent girlfriend each week to see the work in progress.

[SlamFire1]

Hey Lance, it breaks my heart to tell you this, but once metal has been heated to that point, it is metallurgically changed on a molecular level (damaged). I would be tempted, as you are, to put them back into service and only run light loads etc etc etc if I didn't know what I do about such things.

The fact of the matter is that if metal is not wrapped in SS foil, or heated in a very controlled environment for a set amount of time, there is a process called "decarburization" that takes place. What happens is that the carbon (that which gives the steel it's ability to have strength) is held in an uncaptured state long enough that it leaks out of the steel like water out of a sponge.

In the original hardening process, the steel is brought up to the austenitic temperature (that's where the carbon is uncaptured) and held there for a specific amount of time in an environment that keeps the carbon from leaching out, then the steel is shocked (quenched) which traps the carbon in suspension but it's under great pressure (this is why metal is brittle when heated and quenched). At this point, the action is too brittle to handle anything but the lightest shock that a 22LR could deliver, so a second heating is done at a much lower temperature (only about 600-800 degrees this time). This makes the metal softer, but renders it with great shock resistance!

Furthermore, the metal can be heated to that draw temperature as many times as you wish with no loss of strength whatsoever. In fact the grain structure becomes more and more refined.

However, if the metal is ever taken above this draw temperature, the temper of the metal is permanently ruined. If the metal is taken so high that the austenitic temperature is once again approached, and allowed to sit there in an uncontrolled environment (house fires) then the carbon begins to leach out of the steel, changing the basic makeup of the metal.

It is then absolutely impossible to heat treat it in the same way that it was originally done and produce results that are anywhere close to what was there before. The process must then be altered in order to produce a similar strength in the steel, but no one knows how much carbon was lost, so it becomes the heat treater's responsibility to "give it his best shot" cross his fingers and hope for the best.
This goes on pretty frequently with knifemakers and tool makers etc etc etc (had to do it myself when I ran the ovens at Bargo Engineering in Fayetteville Ar. for three years) but noone with a lick of sense would put their career or freedom on the line to see if a piece of metal will prevent a shooter from sending a rifle bolt through his face.

For this reason, I do not know of a single heat treater that would touch the project you have there.

So, the best thing you could do if you are just bent on getting these things back into service, would be to buy the ovens, learn the craft, use one of the actions to learn by, and hope that the other one was made of the same steel and was treated exactly the same as the first one. I would not put that rifle to my face till I had fired about 10 En Bloc Clips full of factory ammo through it, pulling the trigger with a string.

Sorry I don't have better news for you, but that's the way it is.
You take care, and please be safe

This is an excellent discourse why single heat treat 03’s are so risky to fire. There are those irrational types who believe that low number Springfields only burst because of “bore obstructions” or “overloads”, but the fact of the matter is that the forge shop workers at SA and RIA did not have temperature gages. The Army did not supply them with instrumentation gages so they were judging forge temperatures by eye. The Army may have created a perverse incentive if they paying the forge workers piece rate. Heating the billets up would have made stamping quicker. But anyway, given that all low number 03’s were made in such an imprecise environment, no temperature controls other than eyeballs, and many were burnt in the forge room to soda cracker brittleness. This also explains why the Army was never able to “re heat” the things back to an acceptable condition and why the whole production is suspect.

[barnetmill]

I have access to a commercial Yugoslavian mauser(I think it was a mark ten) that went through a fire. Fire was hot enough to burn up the springs and IIRC the extractor. I wonder if the receiver of this type of gun can be reheat treated and a new or surplus 98 bolt substituted to get it going again with a low pressure round like a .300 Sav?

[lancem]

I have access to a commercial Yugoslavian mauser(I think it was a mark ten) that went through a fire. Fire was hot enough to burn up the springs and IIRC the extractor. I wonder if the receiver of this type of gun can be reheat treated and a new or surplus 98 bolt substituted to get it going again with a low pressure round like a .300 Sav?

Without knowing the specific steel the receiver was made from I would say you fall into not likely category. In my case I got lucky and there is documentation showing that the receivers were from 8620 steel and case hardened to a specific point, these gave my guy the info he needed to do the job. without that information you probably won't find anyone that will touch the job.

[M-Tecs]

I have access to a commercial Yugoslavian mauser(I think it was a mark ten) that went through a fire. Fire was hot enough to burn up the springs and IIRC the extractor. I wonder if the receiver of this type of gun can be reheat treated and a new or surplus 98 bolt substituted to get it going again with a low pressure round like a .300 Sav?

Some info here http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...at-treat-table

Kuhnhausen book on 98's cover this if I remember correctly. My copy is loaned out currently so I can't check. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/661...rry-kuhnhausen

The companies below heat treat 98's

http://satterleearms.com/gunsmithing.htm

Blanchard Metal Processing, Inc.
P.O. Box 26695
Salt Lake City, UT 84126-0695
Phone: 801-972-5590
Fax: 801-972-6346

Heinzelman Heat Treating LLC,
790 Washington Avenue
Carlstadt, NJ 07072
Phone: (201) 933-4800

[barnetmill]

Some info here http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...at-treat-table

Kuhnhausen book on 98's cover this if I remember correctly. My copy is loaned out currently so I can't check. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/661...rry-kuhnhausen

The companies below heat treat 98's

http://satterleearms.com/gunsmithing.htm

Blanchard Metal Processing, Inc.
P.O. Box 26695
Salt Lake City, UT 84126-0695
Phone: 801-972-5590
Fax: 801-972-6346

Heinzelman Heat Treating LLC,
790 Washington Avenue
Carlstadt, NJ 07072
Phone: (201) 933-4800

Thanks very much for the links and general information. I will first check with my gun smith about how the commercial mauser action compares to the military 98's and then go to those links. My gunsmith stated that anything that goes through a high temp fire is junk, but he is not a materials engineer. I have to find it since I considered it to be junk and just put it aside 20 yrs ago. Finding it is essential so that I have what ever information that is stamped on the gun. I was thinking years ago of maybe chambering it for a pistol cartridge of really low pressure, but if there is a possibility fixing the receiver I will for certain look into it. It can be one of the many semi-completed projects that I have going on.

[M-Tecs]

Most gunsmiths have limited metallurgical knowledge at best. The real question is how hot the receiver actually got.

http://haymansafe.com/pages/Fire_Ratings
It should be noted that that average house fire almost never rises above 1200 °F. This is based on the hottest point in the house, which is toward the roof. A safe installed on ground level will most likely never experience temperatures that high. However, safes on a second or third floor might. In addition, the average length of a house fire is approximately 30 minutes, depending on the responsiveness of the local fire department. Of course, all of this is contingent on the size and build of the house. Multi-story homes will burn hotter and be more difficult to put out than a single story home.

http://www.wisetool.com/designation/annealing.htm
Overheated, Burnt and Underannealed Structures
When the steel is heated well above the upper critical temperature large austenite crystals form. Slow cooling gives rise to the Widmanstätten type of structure, with its characteristic lack of both ductility and resistance to shock. This is known as an overheated structure, and it can be refined by reheating the steel to just above the upper critical point.Surface decarburisation usually occurs during the overheating.

During the Second World War, aircraft engine makers were troubled with overheating (above 1250°C) (2282 F) in drop-stampings made from alloy steels. In the hardened and tempered condition the fractured surface shows dull facets. The minimum overheating temperature depends on the "purity" of the steel and is substantially lower in general for electric steel than for open-hearth steel. The overheated structure in these alloy steels occurs when they are cooled at an intermediate rate from the high temperature. At faster or slower rates the overheated structure may be eliminated. This, together with the fact that the overheating temperature is significantly raised in the presence of high contents of MnS and inclusions, suggests that this overheating is conected in some way with a diffusion and precipitation process, involving MnS. This type of overheating can occur in anatmosphere free from oxygen, thus emphasising the difference between overheating and burning.

As the steel approaches the solidus temperature, incipient fusion and oxidation take place at the grain boundaries. Such a steel is said to be burnt and it is characterised by the presence of brittle iron oxide films, which render the steel unfit for service, except as scrap for remelting.

If the receiver does not have scale it did not come close to any critical temperatures. Most of the 98’s are carbon steel like 1030, 1117 or 1120.

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6531
Annealing of AISI 1030 carbon steel is carried out at 871 to 982°C (1600 to 1800°F) and then slow cooled in the furnace. Stress relief annealing may be carried out at 538°C (1000°F).

AISI 1030 carbon steel is forged at 982 to 1260°C (1800 to 2300°F).


To damage 1030 beyond repair it would have to be well above 1800°F. At that temp you will see heavy scaling. No scale you are good to reheat treat.

Scale looks kind of like rust. (best pics I could find) http://metallinechemicals.com/produc...lt.aspx?id=222

[MBTcustom]

Just for the record, I am a gunsmith, and I also ran the heat treat ovens at one of the biggest machine shops in Arkansas for 3 years heat treating all manner of steels. Before that I was trained as a blacksmith and ran a coal forge for several years making knives and hardening them by eye.
I don't consider myself a certified expert, but I know more about it than most.
I stand by my PM to the OP.
I've had to appraise the level of damage to guns that went through fires, and the last one I did, there was a cabinet right next to the gunsafe and gunrack that had glass windows in it. All the glass was in a puddle on the floor beside the safe. I'm calling that 1200 degrees F.
Nobody likes to hear it, but fire damaged guns are not safe, and should be condemned.
I doubt the fact that you saved yourself $800 and enjoyed shooting a hundred rounds would be much comfort when you're shelling out hospital bills for maiming yourself.

I'm not trying to poo poo what you've done here, but please be careful. There is no reason to shoot that rifle the first time with it nestled against your face.
Pull the trigger with a string and look carefully for signs of damage.

[barnetmill]

Thanks to M-Tec for the additional information and goodsteel for the additional safety information.

[country gent]

Improperly hardend steel can take awhile to fail due to stress build up work hardening and other issues. To hard will be brittle and fatigue over time. To soft and it streches and wears quickly. Make sure the actions are still straight and true after heat treatment as some warpping may have occured.

[M-Tecs]

Your are very welcome. One more source for companies that do 98 Mausers http://www.pacmet.com/index.php?h=

Pacific Metallurgical, Inc
925 5th Avenue South
Kent, Washington 98032

(253) 854-4241

more info here:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3131#287103131

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...10714#79210714

I am not locating a what steel is used in commercial 98. Not the first time this has been asked. The heat treater should be able to provide this info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_2/370...8_actions.html

[barnetmill]

Your are very welcome. One more source for companies that do 98 Mausers http://www.pacmet.com/index.php?h=

Pacific Metallurgical, Inc
925 5th Avenue South
Kent, Washington 98032

(253) 854-4241

more info here:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3131#287103131

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...10714#79210714

I am not locating a what steel is used in commercial 98. Not the first time this has been asked. The heat treater should be able to provide this info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_2/370...8_actions.html

The may be more than one common manufacturer of commercial 98's of the last 30 yrs.. In the past I know the Yugoslavians made then when there was still a Tito and maybe the Serbs still do, and the FN people sold them and I presume made them recently if not still. I think the Yugos got some sort of input from FN when they started their manufacture many years of 98's. What I am suggesting is that different arsenals may have used different steel and these steels could also change over time.

[M-Tecs]

What I am suggesting is that different arsenals may have used different steel and these steels could also change over time.

Agreed. If your provide the manufacture and serial number to Blanchard or Pacific they may already have the specifics. If you do find a definitive answer please post your findings.

[barnetmill]

Agreed. If your provide the manufacture and serial number to Blanchard or Pacific they may already have the specifics. If you do find a definitive answer please post your findings.

I will remind myself to look into my vault tomorrow for that action. I have been suffering from badly sprained calf muscle and it is finally starting to improve and this is slowing me down a lot. I have not been shooting for about month. I hope be out doing some bullseye on thurdays and maybe have some answers if I find that action which I acquired about 20 years ago. A masonry contractor was undergoing a divorce and had a house fire (one likely he set), and my mason that also worked for him gave me that action.

[leadman]

There are still many Mauser 98 receivers around that are military but for the cost of one of these it might not pay to have your reheat treated. Guess when you find it and price it out you will know then.

[flounderman]

I had an Enfield reheat treated years ago and they said they would test it to see if it needed retreating, first. Somewhere someone told me if the springs had any life left in them the receiver shouldn't have been damaged from the heat.