Making 30 Cal Dies

[Cane_man]

still working on this project... had a few sidetrack issues [1] got a new lathe, [2] the new lathe makes it possible to make a radius attachment to the tool post:

here is my 1945 Logan 210 10x24, I have been learning how to use it, adjust the belt, acquire all the wrenches/screw drivers etc. needed, added a qctp, add leveling pads, etc. and now i have decided to replace the existing 1/2hp single phase motor with a 1hp 3 phase motor attached to a VFD:



Honorstick and Customcutter have shown me the way for making a radius attachment for the tool post, i am in the process of making this now which will make it much easier to make accurate laps and reamers (more repeatable) and it will look something like this:



not sure how long this will take, but i will have a week or so of somewhat free time in the middle of April, in the mean time i have ordered the motor and phase converter/vfd and continue to fine tune the lathe

at present the following have been completed for this project:
-draw die system to draw 9mm range pickups to 7mm/30cal jackets
-lead core sizing dies
-core seating dies

right now i am at the stage of making the point forming die, the most difficult and time consuming part of this project

any of you guys thinking about making your own dies and saving up for a mini lathe imo just save up a few more hundred and you can find a used 'old iron' lathe (South Bend, Logan, Atlas, etc.) and get a much higher quality machine that won't limit you like the 7x12 CML will... look in Craigslist and be patient and a quality older lathe in decent condition will turn up in the $500-$1000 range, i see the mini lathes are in the $400-$700 range now and for the same money or just a little more you can do much better

[Twmaster]

any of you guys thinking about making your own dies and saving up for a mini lathe imo just save up a few more hundred and you can find a used 'old iron' lathe (South Bend, Logan, Atlas, etc.) and get a much higher quality machine that won't limit you like the 7x12 CML will... look in Craigslist and be patient and a quality older lathe in decent condition will turn up in the $500-$1000 range, i see the mini lathes are in the $400-$700 range now and for the same money or just a little more you can do much better

And that is the conclusion nearly every mini-lathe owner comes to. It's also the conclusion nearly 100% of prospective mini-lathe owner's ignore.

Nice old Logan you've got there.

[Sitzme]

And that is the conclusion nearly every mini-lathe owner comes to. It's also the conclusion nearly 100% of prospective mini-lathe owner's ignore.

Nice old Logan you've got there.

I too upgraded to an old SB heavy 10 from a HF 7x10. It is like night and day.

Keep in mind that when steel is heat treated the all the properties change, not just the hardness. Strength usually goes up but only to a point and it will vary greatly depending on the alloy. It would be best to look at a graph to find the strength at the hardness desired. Also with some you will have surface hardness and with others, through hardness. You may be aware of these things but I am bringing it up for those who might be looking in to building their own also.

Having said that the old rules of thumb are generally good so if you can find out what a successful builder is using, that might be a good choice. They have done the research to find material that machines well and has the mechanical properties required.

[Cane_man]

finally finished installing a new motor and a vfd on my lathe,

[1] new 1hp 3 phase 220v motor (upgraded from 1/2hp),



[2] vfd attached in a box on the end of the lathe, converts 120v single phase to 220v 3 phase to the motor and allows variable speed control of the lathe,



[3] vfd remote controls, on/off switch for vfd, used the existing drum switch for lathe direction, a pot to control speed, and a red mushroom emergency stop switch on the end



going to have some time this week to try and finish the radial attachment to the cross-slide to cut ogives...

[Cane_man]

alright i finally got the radial attachment to the cross-slide finished, or about 95% done, just have to clean it up make some adjustments, but overall i am pretty satisfied with how it turned out:





it's a little rough looking, but i had a heck of a time with the elevation of the tool bit... the cut above was just proof of concept on some 5/16" W1 i had laying around and the ogive measured about 4S for this size and that is why it looks stubby... this radial attachment should make is easy now to make repeatable reamer and lap blanks, much easier than the method i was using before...

next step: make several reamer and lap blanks so the d-reamer, 2 fluted reamer, and laps can be made...

i know this project is going slowly, but i dont have much time right now so it will be hit or miss until July...

(the tape on the chuck is for my $12 chicom tachometer!)

[teddyblu]

Glad to see you posting again . The radius cutter looks great and of quality. I will be following your 30 cal die making. My die making has slowed down till my right arm recovers form severe swelling from a lump removal. Keep the fine work. I enjoy the mechanics of making dies more than the swaging itself.

[Cane_man]

got the radial attachment dialed in, really easy to use and i am satisfied with the results, here is 0.278 blank with a 6S ogive cut:



got my blanks all turned to the correct diameter, ready for the ogive to be cut on them... O1 for reamers and Brass for laps:



learned that a more blunt cutting tool works better than a more pointy cutter... the gold cutter on the left worked much better than the carbide insert on the right as the point would dig into the material and "catch" cutting deeper than required...



next step is to make a d-reamer and a 2-fluted reamer so the pointing die can be cut!!! it's starting to get serious

[Twmaster]

As you've found out a radiused tip is important in some types of cutting.

I've had good service from both those brazed carbide and insert type cutters. You can get inserts with rounder radii tips. Deciphering the part codes can be interesting though!

Although I'd use a different shaped insert like the CNMG and CNMA style of cutters.

[Cane_man]

using an end mill to cut flutes on a reamer blank, had to make a tool holder from some 1/2" square aluminum and add some set screws:



here is s d-reamer ready for the relief to be filed and the cutting edge rough honed, all before heat treating, main relief near tip was ground with the bench grinder:



need to finish filing relief on these reamers, then heat treat, and then final hone with the diamond hones and the pointing die will be ready to be step drilled and reamed...

[bangerjim]

Radiused carbide insert cutters are all I use, except a couple for 90 degree shouldering cuts. Much smoother and a nice finish all around. Can chatter a higher speeds depending on the feed and material. That is where your VFD will come in handy!

I use my 360 round circle inserts a lot and for final cuts I run my lathe at less than 1RPS. Nice smooth chatter-free finishes.

I do not make any gun stuff but the principals of machining carry thru. I make clocks and scientific instrument reproductions.

banger

[Twmaster]

Is it just me or does it look like you took off more than 49% of the material in the last photo?

[Cane_man]

optical illusion!

it sure looks like i got carried away with it, but it is split right down the point... perhaps it looks that way because the blank is 0.3125 and the reamer is 0.276

dont have to be real precise with the d-reamer as it will only be used to take out the steps from step drilling and rough out the ogive profile... but the 2-fluted reamer needs to be be t*ts dead on, or close enough as i will lap out the final 0.004

[bangerjim]

This is a version of a Holdridge radius cutter that fits in my quick-change tool posts of my various lathes.

It pivots back I forth and can cut balls from <1/4" to as large as 2" in diameter. I use this a lot when making handles and scientific instruments!




The long thing is the handle that attaches to the shaft sticking out the top.

Gives a perfect surface on a sphere. This has cut many many spheres, round ends, and other otherwise impossible lathe items!

Next thing, I will remove all the black lacquer and ES gun powder coat it with matte black.

banger

[Cane_man]

had some time to think through all the layout for the pointing die and sketch it up, which includes step drilling detail:



now time to cut the die body, face the ends, center drill, then start step drilling and drill thru the eject punch hole... then it will be time to d-ream and finish ream... then start the lapping marathon if.... if, i dont snap a reamer ... if the reamer snaps then its just time to for a while to get over it!

note: i hope you can see that this would be very easy to upscale if you were making 30 cal dies

[Cane_man]

kind of hard to see, but the die blank has been prepped and step drilled, all ready to d-ream and then finish ream (the hole-thru is 1/16", looks much bigger than it really is):



probably won't get to it until a few weeks as i had some issues to take care of before i can d-ream and then finish ream this pointing die...

[Cane_man]

Had some unexpected time to sneak in the shop last night to see if I could ream out this pointing die… the d-reamer snapped like a toothpick about 10s into the job! I was really ticked, so I thought I would just chuck the 2-fluted reamer in the tail stock to see if it would do the job and if snapped then so be it… the 2-fluted reamer worked like a champ, I was able to use the back gears on my Logan and go really slow, and I also used some Kool Mist 77 coolant in a water spray bottle, and was really pleased with the results (you can barely see a black line on the end of the reamer, that was the final reaming depth of 1.375"):



Here is the pointing die all reamed out and ready for lapping:



This was about the 10th time I have attempted to ream out a pointing die, and the first time on this project, and it was by far the most successful, here is what I thought made the difference:

1) lathe – having a much larger and heavier lathe made a real difference, so much more control, no chatter, and being able to ream at 50 rpm or so with power was awesome… if you are on the fence on whether to buy/use a CML 7x10-12, just save a few more hundred and buy an old iron lathe, you wont regret it!

2) coolant – this is the first time I have used coolant for reaming, I used “Kool Mist Formula 77”, mix 1 ounce in a quart of water, apply with a water spray bottle, this stuff is awesome! I can get a fine stream and flush out the part while reaming and when the reamer is out of the die… really like this stuff, i used some cutting oil on the reamer as well and not sure if it made any difference...

Honing the reamers: for finish honing the reamers to almost a razors edge these diamond laps called ez lap are awesome! A three pack like this can be had on evilbay for about $15:




Now it is on to lapping, and I don’t expect any problems here… right now the die is around 0.278” at the shank, will lap to 0.281 (I will know this when the 0.279 test probe fits) then heat treat and temper, then lap out to final at around 0.2838 or so, wont get to this for a few weeks! hardest part of the pointing die is finished, and i have my foot on its throat now!!! making the eject punch is a little bit of a pain, i will detail that as i get to it...

[squished]

here is what I thought made the difference:

1) lathe – having a much larger and heavier lathe made a real difference, so much more control, no chatter, and being able to ream at 50 rpm or so with power was awesome… if you are on the fence on whether to buy/use a CML 7x10-12, just save a few more hundred and buy an old iron lathe, you wont regret it!

As someone who is new to machining, lathes and swaging but has a CML, I gotta totally agree! I've owned 2 partially complete Craftsman/Dunlap mini lathes from the 1950's, an Atlas Franken-lathe built from miscellaneous parts that's seen better days and a Grizzly CML.

I'm ready to look for lathe #5 and it'll be American old iron. The CML that I have is too underpowered for threading the 7/8-14 needed for dies and results in lots of ruined parts and frustration. Of course, the frustration could be due to the operator

I've learned a bit about lathe in the process though and can hopefully pick a more complete, better functioning lathe than the Atlas I had before.

Anyway, keep up the posts Cane-man. They're inspiring.

[bangerjim]

As someone who is new to machining, lathes and swaging but has a CML, I gotta totally agree! I've owned 2 partially complete Craftsman/Dunlap mini lathes from the 1950's, an Atlas Franken-lathe built from miscellaneous parts that's seen better days and a Grizzly CML.

I'm ready to look for lathe #5 and it'll be American old iron. The CML that I have is too underpowered for threading the 7/8-14 needed for dies and results in lots of ruined parts and frustration. Of course, the frustration could be due to the operator

I've learned a bit about lathe in the process though and can hopefully pick a more complete, better functioning lathe than the Atlas I had before.

Anyway, keep up the posts Cane-man. They're inspiring.

Your problem with threading is not lack of power!!!!! I use absolutely NO power when cutting threads. I use a manual handle I made that locks into the spindle that I turn the stock by hand with s-l-o-w-l-y to get perfect control of threads. I have a full 1HP VFD drive on my SB quick-change (down to <1RPS at full power) but do not use it for threading. Hand power is much better and more precise.

7/8-14 is nothing for a lathe. I cut all manner of threads, even as large as 3.5" for custom thread work for antique surveying instruments.

Try it again with good old elbow grease!

I have been making "stuff" on lathes and mills for over 40 years. It is fun! Size matters, but expertise matters MORE. Keep on making chips....you will get there!

banger

[squished]

Thanks, bangerjim!

I believe you. It could certainly be operator error or lack of patience on my part. Part of being a lathe newbie is expectations that things will just work.

I'll keep at it.

[midnight]

Caneman: I just started reading this thread and got all excited. Last Monday a 1945 10x24 Logan followed me home. Got three jaw and four jaw chucks, quick change tool post, rocker tool post with six tool holders, 11 MT3 collets & drawbar for the MT3 spindle nose, dead centers & some other stuff. Got a 5C collet chuck on the way. Reading this thread lets me realize what can be done with this amazing machine. Gone are the days of using my milling machine as a lathe. If you can, give me your thoughts on using the MT3 collets on work up to 3/4in (max for MT3 collets) and the 5C chuck for anything larger. Maybe I should use the 5C for everything round.

Bob