?: 40-70 SS from Krag Brass

[rwsem]

I normally just search and read but this search only posed more questions for me.

Comparing brass that I received with the 1875 C. Sharps (Krag headstamp) to recently acquired 30-40 Krag brass, I can't see how fire forming will get the case to the correct length. During my searches, I found that Krag brass requires stretching so off I went looking for case stretchers but it seems they only stretch .02" or so. The difference between the new Krag brass and those I received with the rifle is .19" to .20". So what gives? How do I fire form and stretch this Krag brass to 2.505"?

Thanks in advance for any help,
Ron

[Chill Wills]

To the degree you need to make "stretched" 40-70 brass, you're in the domain of Buffalo Arms Co. Order it pre made. 2.5" is longer than "we" can stretch it with common press mounted equipment.

[longranger]

Or have Dave over at rockymountaincartidge.com make you some everlasting brass. I bought 50 pieces about 10 years ago and it fits perfectly for my Shiloh 40-70SS.I don't like the stretched Krag brass as it is to thin at the case mouth to hold a bullet as well as full sized brass.It is important to dry the chamber after blow tubing or wiping the bore/chamber to minimize case stretching.

[Don McDowell]

Dave isn't at Rocky Mtn Cartride, he sold out a couple 3 years ago.

Another thought is get some of the 40-72 brass from Jamison, or wait until they get the run of 40-70's done.
http://www.captechintl.com/default.php

[13Echo]

Is the .405 Winchester the proper length?


Jerry Liles

[Don McDowell]

It would be a little long, and the rim would be just a touch thick, but there are "40-70"'s that have been chambered to accept the 405 brass.

[rwsem]

I have some 405 brass and I think there is enough head space built into the 1875; I'd have to turn the necks probably, as the Sharps slugged to .409" and given the thicker case- I don't think I'd get a loaded case to chamber. Maybe something to mess around with....

[Don McDowell]

405 uses a .411-.413 diameter bullet so I would be surprised if a person had to inside neck ream. I know I have a heck of a time getting bullets smaller than .410 to stay put in my 405 brass.

[rr2241tx]

Buffalo Arms catalogues a bewildering array of 40-70 Straight brass, all made from stretched 30-40 Krag. I doubt any of it is 2.505 long but the rim thickness does vary. Jamison will eventually run some more, they say. In the meantime, your best bet is probably to shoot what you got with the rifle and if you need more, order it from C. Sharps or measure it carefully and call Buffalo Arms. The 40-70 SS brass I bought from Buffalo Arms was just about right for my 40-63 Ballard, so it would have been a grease groove and driving band short for most 40-70 chambers.

[2Tite]

You should check with C Sharps.......I believe that their 40-70 chamber is designed to use the 405 Winchester brass.

[Jon K]

Buffalo Arms catalogues a bewildering array of 40-70 Straight brass, all made from stretched 30-40 Krag. I doubt any of it is 2.505 long but the rim thickness does vary. Jamison will eventually run some more, they say. In the meantime, your best bet is probably to shoot what you got with the rifle and if you need more, order it from C. Sharps or measure it carefully and call Buffalo Arms. The 40-70 SS brass I bought from Buffalo Arms was just about right for my 40-63 Ballard, so it would have been a grease groove and driving band short for most 40-70 chambers.

rr2241tx,

Wasn't the rim diameter, of the 30-40 brass .030" too small for the 40-63 chamber?

Jon

[MikeT]

Unless things have changes lately, Meacham & C. Sharps 40-70SS use the same rim thickness as the standard 30-40 Krag. The Shiloh 40-70SS uses the same rim thickness as the standard 405 Hornady brass. So, If you order from BA you must make sure to get the C. Sharps 30-40K stretched brass, because they bump-up the rim to the 405 thickness for the Shiloh Sharps 40-70SS.

I have used both the 405 and the BA 30-40K in my Shiloh, just need to get the correct rim thickness for the rifle maker you have.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[rwsem]

So, I'm in luck. I made a .405 dummy round and it chambers in the C Sharps. The Head Clearance is .0015" so the rim fits. When loaded with a .410" diameter bullet, there is a definite bulge and the case diameter at the mouth is about .4345" (compared to the Krag dummy at about .4325"). Since it still chambers, I guess I won't worry about it right away but I'll have to remember to anneal every so often, I suppose. Good news is that it looks like I won't need to neck turn them, to fit in the chamber, when loaded. I'm surprised as I wrote C. Sharps and they said to use 30-40 Krag brass. Little did I know I couldn't stretch it to fit... thanks for the discussion folks; I appreciate it. Now, to sell a bag of Krag brass....

[rr2241tx]

rr2241tx,

Wasn't the rim diameter, of the 30-40 brass .030" too small for the 40-63 chamber?

Jon

Good question. I'll check. Functionally, the rim diameter is sufficient and they headspace well in my 1875 Pacific #5. The unfired rounds I got with the rifle were a mix of Ballard 40-70 and UMC 40-70 SS, both with paper patched bullets. Sadly, no actual 40-63 Ballard Everlasting to compare to. The BA stretched Krag is in my opinion, a fairly marginal source of brass as the body is slightly under diameter and very brittle. I lost about 1/3 of the brass to longitudinal splits on first firing but it was that or hang it on the wall until Jamison runs more brass.

[longranger]

Thanks Don, I had no idea RMC was no longer,wish I wold have bought more of his brass.

[Don McDowell]

RMC is still in business but Dave doesn't own it anymore.

[.22-10-45]

Here's a thought... I have heard it said numerable times how lucky we are today to have modern brass cases to form obsolets black powder cases from. I don't think luck has anything to do with it. Back in the early 1890's, when the military decided to follow the other major countries of the world and have a smallbore military rifle, the guys at frankford arsenal wanting to save some cash..and not re-invent the wheel, might of went to Winchester to see what they had. They could have taken a look at the old Sharps .40 2 1/2" (.40-70)..with a bit of shortening, and necking down..they had their .30 Army.

[rr2241tx]

rr2241tx,

Wasn't the rim diameter, of the 30-40 brass .030" too small for the 40-63 chamber?

Jon

Did some measuring as promised. My rifle is an 1875 Marlin-Ballard Pacific No. 5 rollmarked 40-63. All the cartridges I received with it were 40-70, some Ballard some UMC 40-70 SS. My loads are made up in BA stretched Krag brass.

Brass type Rim Diameter Body Diameter Case Length

Ballon Head Ballard 40-70 .552 .475 2.388
Solid Head UMC 40-70 SS Unfired .557 .475 2.383
Solid Head UMC 40-70 SS Fired .479
BA Krag Unfired .544 .453 2.389
BA Krag Fired .460 2.384

The BA Krag cases I have I bought from Shiloh where they were listed as being Jamison brass, which they clearly are not since the bag was labeled Buffalo Arms. Looks like the rim diameter is between .008 and .013 smaller than the original black powder cartridges I have. At any rate, the extractor has no problem with them and they headspace correctly. The BA Krag cases have a small ring thinned at the back edge of the rim but no thinning on the face of the rim. Case length was sufficient for me to trim back to match the depth of the chamber. I cut the brass back to leave minimal clearance at the front of the chamber and match as closely as I could the length of the original Ballard case. I did not expect it to shrink.

What I called Body Diameter is as measured at the top of the web. The BA Krag fired cases have a distinct swell from the top of the web to the base of the shoulder as a result of their being .023 smaller than factory at that point before firing. This explains why I lost so many on first firing. Whether more will be lost on a second firing remains to be seen.

Overall, I'd say that the BA Stretched Krag brass that I was so critical of initially actually acquitted itself fairly well. Until Hornady makes another run of 405 Winchester or Jamison runs some 40-70 SS, this may have to do. Those of you with C. Sharps or Shiloh Sharps rifles in 40-70 SS may not have the same chamber dimensions and may not have the splitting issue I had.

[Red River Rick]

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