Leading vs. Cream of Wheat?

[LeadThrower]

http://www.bulletlubes.com/ describes, at the very bottom of the page, a method of removing leading by "load[ing] a few cc's of Cream of Wheat breakfast cereal (UNCOOKED!) below a cast bullet".

Anyone care to share your experiences with this method?

Mmmmm.... suddenly I'm hungry!

Happy New Year, all!

[mooman76]

So that's waht I've been doing wrong. It suppose to be uncooked!

[VTDW]

I read that also. I am going to give it a good try if I ever lead a rifle up but so far I haven't. Fingers are definitely crossed.

Dave

[ktw]

If I remember correctly, Ken Mollohan ("Molly" here) was an advocate of COW as both a filler and a gas check substitute.

He sent me a copy of an article he wrote on COW some time ago. I will have to look for it. I was planning to try it in a 243, but then unexpectedly traded off the rifle. Still plan to try in some other cartridges, but these are currently pretty low on my cast bullet load development priority list.

-ktw

[longbow]

I can't claim lead removal with Cream 'o Wheat (never tried that) but I can tell you that I have shot unlubricated lead boolits with a Cream 'o Wheat filler and have not gotten any leading when without filler I did.

I have also read posts and articles by others who claim the same. The comment I read was the the Cream 'o Wheat packs into a tight hard puck and scrapes the lead out.

Having just read ktw's post, I have also used Cream 'o Wheat filler under ungaschecked boolits successfully too. Just bear in mind that the filler takes up space and raises pressures. You can't just take any old load and add filler. You have to make sure the load is low enough pressure that the addition od filler weight and reduction of cartridge empty volume don't result in over poressurig your gun.

Good reading here on fillers:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

If the right page doesn't come up you are looking for "Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield Rifle"

And from here:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...ller/index.asp

This comment: "Safe, easy to acquire & use, 100% loading density, accuracy enhancing and scrubs the barrel clean with each shot." This refers to PSB filler - you have to scroll down the article a ways.

Longbow

[Ricochet]

It used to be a popular recommendation as a filler for reduced loads. Sometime in the '70s I read that it has a tendency to clump, harden, and raise pressures.

[kodiak1]

Have used it for ages and wouldn't use anything else for a filler.
Have never had leading problems, figured I was either damn lucky or damn good.
Always lube when using grease grooves. Have even used it under paper patched with smokeless loads.
Kind of like the smell of powder singed cream of wheat.
Haven't ringed a barrel yet either.
Ken.

[JIMinPHX]

I always used grits for filler.

[VTDW]

Is there a rule of thumb for using COW for filler? I am thinking about using a 1/4 charge in my rifles to see how it works but would be grateful for someone having experience to post the answer as they see it.

Thanks,

Dave

[JIMinPHX]

I've only used filler with black powder. With that , you fill it right up to the seating depth of the bullet. Air space + black powder = big problems. With smokeless, things are different. The airspace in a smokeless cartridge acts as a buffer for the higher pressure that powder creates. That's why the same powder charge in a .308 & a .30-06 generate two different pressures. The case with the larger volume, & larger airspace, generates the lower pressure with smokeless powders.

[JIMinPHX]

Also, I’ve never used filler in a bottleneck case.

[LeadThrower]

The changing pressure as a function of case volume depends on powder burn rate, I imagine, so this question might be overly complex....

Is there a rule of thumb for changing case volume and its effect on pressure? (as a result of seating depth and/or filler use)

For reference: right now I'm dropping 5.3 gr Unique into 357 mag brass, which is well under Lee's reloading manual maximum of 6.9 gr. However, my COL is only 1.555 to seat the 158 RF at the crimp groove. Lee's manual lists 1.590 as the min COL, but I've had no signs of pressure even up to 6.9 gr with COL at 1.555 - 1.560.

Longbow: your link to filler use is my next destination... thanks!

[KCSO]

I have used COW filler, but only with charges that filled 3/4 of the case or better. COW was the only way i could get a couple of 303's to shoot as I couldn't put a bullet big enough for the bore in the chamber. I never tried to REMOVE lead but it might work. Let us know.

[waksupi]

I have used COW in bottleneck cartridges. I found at times, I would have a hard compressed ring of it, left inside of the casing after firing. I don't use it anymore.

[longbow]

I have used COW filler only in black powder cartridge and .303 British.

I have not had any trouble with COW in the .303 with smokeless loads. I would have to look up my records but I have used it to top up the case with reduced loads of IMR 4064 and IMR 4320 and I worked up to a max. load of Unique (loading manual max. without COW) under a 205 gr. boolit with the extra case volume filled with COW. The primers were just starting to flatten a bit with that load, no extraction problems or other signs of pressure. Accuracy was good and no leading.

I've also used it with of IMR 4198 (I won't repeat the charge unless I check) but it was near the maximum recommended without filler. I worked up to this load with no problems and got good accuracy.

I was a little surprised that I wasn't seeing pressure signs with so much volume reduction but then the COW does compress some too and is probably on its way down the barrel before the pressure peaks. From what I understand from reading several articles is that the biggest benefits are consistent velocities due to consistent ignition and sealing of the gases behind the boolit. David Southall mentions these as well as the potential to scrub out leading in his article on http://www.303british.com/id37.html

I haven't done enough testing to confirm or deny with certainty but I like the COW filler and will continue to use it when appropriate unless I experience problems. Also when using it I have had no leading so far.

Granted the .303 has quite a tapered body and gentle neck angle compared to say a .243 Win., 7mm Remington mag, 300 Win., etc. They may respond differently.

Longbow

[racepres]

The only times I have used COW was when fireforming for wildcats! [I have a few] Can say that lead was not a problem, and they were all bottleneck cases [to start w/ at least]. On some radical forming processes the charge was quite stout, in order to get good forming. Always I charge, then fill w/ COW [to the top] then seat. Yes it compresses the 'stuff" but I have always gotten good case forming, and now that it is mentioned... No leading whatsoever.. HTH.. MV
Please note that in fireforming,, pressures are typically lower than normal due to the case capacity increasing as the charge builds pressure... so I would start w/ a very light charge when topping off w/ COW in fully formed cases!!! Heck I'll try it tomorrow and give a heads-up... MV

[The Double D]

I first learned of Cream of Wheat from P.O. Ackley. He said use it to fireform brass.

Works good for that. Necks never came out square. One by product of fireforming with CoW was afterwords the bore was always bright and shiney. Nice!

I have been in some feedmills over the years and the thing that has always impressed me was how bright shiny smooth the grills were where the feed passed into the sacks and trucks.

Got to thinking about CoW in a bottle neck case. I can pour the stuff in pretty easy but ever now and then it will block the funnel and I have to shake it to get it in. Pulling down loads I have to poke the stuff with a screwdriver to keep it flowing when i dump it.. Wonder how easy it pours from the larger body of a bottle neck cartridge when being pushed through the smaller neck by a charge of RL-15. Maybe thats why the cases in which I used CoW always need squared.

Lets see...stretched necks, shiney bores...hummmm, I wonder?

[Paul B]

It used to be a popular recommendation as a filler for reduced loads. Sometime in the '70s I read that it has a tendency to clump, harden, and raise pressures.

I'll comfirm that it does cause problems. I was using COW in my 45-70 rifles to hold 16.0 gr. of SR-4759 against the primer with the COW slightly compressed by a Lyman #457122. The load was accurate, gave about 1750 FSP and I liked it. One day at the range, I had an FTF and the bullet never left the case. When I got home, I pulled the bullet and the COW was compacted into one solid chunk that had to be dug out with a screwdriver. Never again, sez I.
I can only imagine what the pressures could be like in a bottlenecked case if the COW compacted as solidly as it did in the 45-70. The slight loss in velocity and slightly larger groups are a very small price to pay for safety.
Paul B.

[racepres]

As promised, I gave it a go today. In the 8mm Mauser 150 gr gc .323's [didn't have any heavy ones madeup] I generally use 13.0 gr of Unique.. tried 10 gr and filled case to shoulder-neck junction w/ COW. .. Got a dirty gun!! Took an ole turk that the bore was kinda dark, and ran the load up to 12.0 gr Unique. filled to base of neck w/ COW and seated some PB and got a really clean bore out of the deal! Encouraged, I grabbed the ole reliable Lee Loader for my .44 [My shootin' partner has my .44 dies] and made some 200 gr rfn pb sized .430 that I been using. Generally I load these w/ 18.0 gr of Blue Dot, but in my records I see where I started at 15.0 gr. and nearly gave up cause of leading. Going to 18.0 had actually improved the leading situation, but cost accuracy, and were not "lead free" . Short story longer, my SBH had some serious lead streaking in her when I started. From touching off some of the 18.0 grainers. for a baseline. After loading the 15.0 gr of BD and enough COW to get a very slightly compressed situation, into a cylinder full, I went out to give 'em a go. Accuracy was real good , considering the "shiver factor' and my range is buried in a snow bank!! Once inside I pulled the cylinder and about dumped the empties out.. not quite but nearly. The bore is shiney as if I just cleaned it!! I'm Gonna keep experimenting. After a warm front!! Sorry so long.. MV

[Cayoot]

Racepres,
Excellent report! I'm gonna have to purchase some cow!

I'm really looking forward to your next report.

Thanks