simple Hi-Tek coating

[popper]

could the grooves be causing the accuracy issue when pushing cast bullets at 3000fps+?

Not due to aerodynamics.
Probably cause the dia. is smaller so weaker at the groove. Slump & bending.

[HI-TEK]

Leadman: I'm very interested in your testing of the 22 cal Bator. From reading here and other forums the 3000fps+ can be had without a problem it's the accuracy that suffers. I am very new to shooting hi-velocity in rifles but something that keeps coming to mind is aerodynamics. I was on hometown racing team and one of the parts to getting our car working properly was the airflow over the car, just to mention we have 3 back to back championship under our belt. This is one of the reasons it got me to thinking what is the biggest difference from jacketed to cast, if we can obtain the speed, but accuracy suffers what else could be the causing this issue. Jacketed bullets are stream lined, but cast have the lube grooves which at the higher velocites creates a chatter effecting accuracy. I appologize if im way off with this like I said I'm a newbie to all this. All im trying to say is with Hi-Tek coating is there a real need for the lube grooves and could the grooves be causing the accuracy issue when pushing cast bullets at 3000fps+?

Thanks for your thoughts.
There is evidence to support your theory. about aerodynamics and shape of projectiles.
We have found that when shooting alloys that are pointy, with lube grooves into water tank, the pointy bullet, & round nosed, with lube grooves did not travel in straight line in the water tank.
When using flat point cylinder shaped projectile, with no lube grooves, not only did it travel in a straight line, but traveled much further in the water tank that the pointed projectile.
It is not known clearly if the lube grooves created drag or created turbulance whilst travelling in the water.
Similar effects would be relevant or noticeable with air, if that was a contributing factor.

Some tests done, suggests, that when comparing Jacketed ammo to cast ammo, there are many reasons why one works and another does not.
With Jacketed ammo, one area of interest is that the alloys is very soft, and this allows much greater hydraulic deformation to take place, which seals the barrel well.
This sealing maximises pressure build up and produces accuracy.
Using cast alloys, which are harder sized at same diameter, these dont deform as much during shooting, and thereby it seems that sealing is inadequate and subsequent loss of accuracy.
This was borne out with using cast alloy which was sized at 3 thou over size, above Jacketed ammo,
(from 308 to 311 diameter), and not only did it travel at 3600ft/sec but remained accurate.
I have tried many times to get data in this area, and Leadman has seemed to have confirmed this aspect.
The rationale used is, that if the lube/coating, or whatever used, stays bonded to the alloy, does not melt fuse or come off during shooting, then it should work OK.
I have always thought, that keeping accuracy was an engineering problem once suitable lube or coating is used.
Many may think otherwise, but that is my two cents worth.

[larksaw]

Hi_Tek: From the reading i've been doing I believe this is all on the right track but like I said Im a newbie to all this but here is a website with a particular article I've been reading its a little over my head but as Im learning its starting to make a little sense. Here is the link:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

Here is a word that I think applies to all this: Obturation

I purchased some jacketed bullet for my wifes AR15 223 they are 50grain Tnt Hp I could find load data on these so I called the company. While speaking to them the guy told me if while build the load up the bullet doesn't make it to the target you will need to slow it down. He then said that while pushing them at approx 3500fps they tend to disintegrate. One part about casting that sticks in my head is that the "major problem with casting is and will always be leading of the barrel in turn effecting accuracy". So what has been taught was to raise the BHN and cast a hard bullet. Now with lubes like yours it seems like we need to take a complete different look out how its being done. Like I said Im a newbie to rifle and want to learn about shooting them but I also want to do it on the cheap so I read and learn from all you folks and learn to cast bullets that are as good or even better then jacketed on the cheap.

[HI-TEK]

Hi_Tek: From the reading i've been doing I believe this is all on the right track but like I said Im a newbie to all this but here is a website with a particular article I've been reading its a little over my head but as Im learning its starting to make a little sense. Here is the link:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chap...Metallurgy.htm

Here is a word that I think applies to all this: Obturation

I purchased some jacketed bullet for my wifes AR15 223 they are 50grain Tnt Hp I could find load data on these so I called the company. While speaking to them the guy told me if while build the load up the bullet doesn't make it to the target you will need to slow it down. He then said that while pushing them at approx 3500fps they tend to disintegrate. One part about casting that sticks in my head is that the "major problem with casting is and will always be leading of the barrel in turn effecting accuracy". So what has been taught was to raise the BHN and cast a hard bullet. Now with lubes like yours it seems like we need to take a complete different look out how its being done. Like I said Im a newbie to rifle and want to learn about shooting them but I also want to do it on the cheap so I read and learn from all you folks and learn to cast bullets that are as good or even better then jacketed on the cheap.

larksaw
Great contribution. Thanks much for the article.

You are correct with your quotation of certain Lead alloys appearing disintegrate at high speeds.
What is also possible, is that the "observed" disintegration, may also had been as a result of heat from powder burning, was actually melting the alloy, and resulted in lead particles being blown out.
That is why one of the reasons, why Gas checks are used.

The main purpose of using any lube was trying to stop Lead or Copper deposits building up inside barrel, and intent was to "lubricate".
Some folk are of the opinion the lubrication "speeds up" the projectile as surfaces are more slippery.
(Unfortunately, those thoughts are not quite correct.)

That is where the "engineering" aspects stops with the lubes. They lubricate, and may reduce Leading but that is all.

The advent of bonded coating, required very specific engineering areas to be catered for, such as strongly bonded to alloys, self lubricate, not melt or fuse with high energy, allow coating to cope with"Obturation" of alloys, and seal bore to separate alloy and bore,
and, most importantly, reflect heat from alloy so the hot gasses did not damage integrity of shape of alloy being shot.

As the writer of your attachment pointed out that many of the failures were misquoted or may have been misunderstood as to why certain things did not go the way people wanted.

Without reading such previously documented stuff, many folk, ( and including me), simply rely on "historical" word of mouth data, which influence some decision making when trying newer ideas.
It was, and is, a real battle to introduce new ideas, where for 100 plus years, things were accepted as being the norm.
I love technology, it constantly surprises me.

[jcobb651]

Got around to testing some new loads today and decided to try and recover some of the hitek coated rounds. These are double coated in gold, 5-1-5. Coating held up just fine. The last photo is from a 230 grain NOE HP....straight wheel weights had them dropping an average of 231 grains. Weight retention was 100% or darn close to it...this one weighed in at 231.4 after recovery and expanded to .921

[gunoil]

Lookin good.





Party like its 1776

[larksaw]

So let me ask this isnt Obturation actually happening with jacket bullets as well? AKA copper deposits. An if this is true then having a larger bearing surface actually helps to compensate for the "minor imperfections (one or two ten-thousandths of an inch) in groove diameter, the width of the lands and grooves, minor local variations in twist rate, etc." also the fact that jacketed bullets have a higher heat tolerance to melting then cast and also with a larger bearing surface it creates more stability increasing accuracy. So if that is true then with "the advent of bonded coating, required very specific engineering areas to be catered for, such as strongly bonded to alloys, self lubricate, not melt or fuse with high energy, allow coating to cope with"Obturation" of alloys, and seal bore to separate alloy and bore, and, most importantly, reflect heat from alloy so the hot gasses did not damage integrity of shape of alloy being shot."

An by increasing the bearing surface wouldn't you think it would increase stability in turn increase accuracy???

[popper]

the pointy bullet, & round nosed, with lube grooves did not travel in straight line in the water tank.

If you watch videos of any bullet shot underwater or into water, they don't go straight. Density of water is so much greater than air - the fps drops rapidly and tumbling occurs. L.G. or not. Even jacketed 'blow up'.

[Beagle333]

and unless fired perfectly straight down, one side of the boolit contacts the water first, while the other is still just pushing air, thus imparting a tumbling tendency even before it gets fully submerged.

[larksaw]

Just a little comment....I'm 53 now when I was young I had no interest in rifles...didn't hunt, still dont but loved to shoot. Pistol was my thing not to join clubs or do matches just to target shoot at local state gun range. Once I got married and the kids had to look at cheaper way to continue shooting so I started reloading first jacketed then to go cheaper started casting. Well to make long story short one thing led to another and shooting started going less and less. Now with the kids being grown and with being re-married I'm back in the fun. Here is my thoughts on shake and bake for pistol I've been using alox/xlox for all my pistol with good enough results to plink and target shoot. Cast them, shake them, let the dry, load them and shoot. This is just short and to the point I'm trying to make. Then you have Hi-Tek coating adds more to the mix with baking and this is all well and good. Here is how I got here the AR15 Bushmaster XM15ES .223 my wife who until this past year never liked guns and now she owns this beast. She absolute loves this gun. I've been trying to come up with cheap way to keep feeding it for her. As we all know what has happened this past year with Obama and the Dems it hasn't been easy to find the food for the beast. So I've been looking to cast for it and thats how I came across this forum. I started way back in the beginning pages and then just jumped forward to find what leadman had post about the 223 and 3500fps+. But slowly I've been reading page for page of this thread.

The need to feed our guns is in great damned....The gun shops that are within 20miles of me were going nuts with people buying guns and a great deal of them were rifles. So cast for the 223 has been the only alternative for me but friends and other forums advise against it that it can and will create to many issues. So I'm looking at your expertise to help me find the answers to cast and feed the beast. Sounds like Hi-tech is working on it but so far with me getting to page 69 there are to many reason to why it shouldn't or couldn't work. Softer lead, harder lead, sizing few thousandths larger, pan lube, wax lube, twist rate 1:10, 1:12, 1:7 etc.. It's this what makes it fun the challenge of doing it and leadman is proof. Most sites I've been on say you need to push the AR15 2000fps approx just to get it to cycle to much faster you get to much leading. Leadman hitting 3500fps approx shattered that theory and getting the accuracy next to boot. HI-Tek better hold on it's gonna be a wild ride.

Thats what keeps me here and actually me posting to a forum is rare and far between this Hi-Tek coating seems to be my answer but I have to rely on the testing other have done to get my answers. Sorry for the rant! But you folks have way more knowledge on this stuff then I do.

[Liberty'sSon]

Has anyone noticed a smoother shinier finish with extra acetone. Coated a batch the other day and the tub had a fair amount of HiTek left from previous coating session, so after I splashed in a little of my 5-1-5 mix, I added a splash of acetone. That batch seemed smoother and shinier to me. Any thoughts?

[HI-TEK]

Has anyone noticed a smoother shinier finish with extra acetone. Coated a batch the other day and the tub had a fair amount of HiTek left from previous coating session, so after I splashed in a little of my 5-1-5 mix, I added a splash of acetone. That batch seemed smoother and shinier to me. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your findings.
The whole idea is to coat with very thin, (diluted) mixtures each time.
This spreads coating used on much larger surfaces area.
It dries quicker, levels out well, and when completely dry, bakes well and coated film smooths out during bake.
Two coats of thinned coating should be enough to get adequate results for most applications.
You use less coating and get good results as well.

[Moonman]

Shot several hundred rounds last week in my S&W 686 Revolver,

NO CLEANING, shot 100 rounds this morning too.

No cleaning, let club members examine the firearm with a barrel light.

They were AMAZED, she's CLEAN AS A WHISTLE.

Using HI-TEK GOLD, I like it.

I was going to look at doing some casting this week, but weatherman

says another POLAR VORTEX or something is coming, COLD AGAIN.

[larksaw]

I'd like to share a link I came across that real help me understand why we cast our bullets hard as we can to obtain faster velocites. It backs up Hi-Teks theory that it might be an engineering problem that needs to be looked at. What I was searching for was Bullet slump and while search this came to light. Take a look!

http://www.rserv.com/Alloy.html

[bmiller]

I shoot USPSA (ipsc), and have been hitting some indoor matches this winter. Hi-tek, do you have a catalyst combo that can cut smoke any? I think powder selection has a lot to do with it. Just curious.

[jcobb651]

I shoot USPSA, and have been hitting some indoor matches this winter. Hi-tek, do you have a catalyst combo that can cut smoke any?

Are you seeing smoke using Hi-TEK? I havent noticed any when shooting indoors using it.

[larksaw]

Hi-Tek,

I've been reading about coating, sizing and then coating again. If I understand it right the reason for the coating after sizing is to fix any part of the coating that might have gotten striped/ or thinned by the sizing. I understand your working on new coating the will act like a jacketed bullet. Here is my thoughts, when it comes to accuracy we weigh, measure, size, etc to control as much of the variables that effect accuracy. I want to use the coating for rifle and from what I gather velocity isn't the problem. So Im looking at another variable that may effect accuracy which would be the thickness of the coating. I've watched the videos on how its done you have to admit controling even flow and thickness isn't there. My thoughts are the new coating and sizing may be a way to adjust this variable and make it consistent. Please your thoughts would be appreciated!

[HI-TEK]

I shoot USPSA (ipsc), and have been hitting some indoor matches this winter. Hi-tek, do you have a catalyst combo that can cut smoke any? I think powder selection has a lot to do with it. Just curious.

Hi,
There is several Catalysts available.
They are mainly for user to allow severe reductions in diameter during sizing.
All catalysts perform same way but using Extreme or 2-Extreme Catalysts, both reduces sizing loads dramatically, especially with longer profile and harder alloys.
The Catalysts selection used, will not change smoking aspects, and there should be very little or none being generated by the coatings even with normal catalysts, provided coatings are cured adequately.
Hope this helps.
If you want to do some playing, I am sure that suppliers should be able to give you some small samples to try.
You dont really need much to compare results you are getting with standard catalyst and Extreme or 2-Extreme catalysts.
If you find success with one, more that the other in your applications, then next time you purchase product, you will then need to specify catalyst you then require with coating selection.

[HI-TEK]

Hi-Tek,

I've been reading about coating, sizing and then coating again. If I understand it right the reason for the coating after sizing is to fix any part of the coating that might have gotten striped/ or thinned by the sizing. I understand your working on new coating the will act like a jacketed bullet. Here is my thoughts, when it comes to accuracy we weigh, measure, size, etc to control as much of the variables that effect accuracy. I want to use the coating for rifle and from what I gather velocity isn't the problem. So Im looking at another variable that may effect accuracy which would be the thickness of the coating. I've watched the videos on how its done you have to admit controling even flow and thickness isn't there. My thoughts are the new coating and sizing may be a way to adjust this variable and make it consistent. Please your thoughts would be appreciated!

Thanks for your questions.
Coating with first coat, then sizing, is mainly required for cast alloys from molds that produce webbing or uneven cast shape.
A single coat should allow sizing, where irregularities are then removed.
Then recoating simply covers areas being exposed.
As alloy is final sized, after coating with 2 or 3 very thin coats, there should be no change in weight at all.
The coating is there to separate alloy from barrel.
You are really should not affecting any thing else.
The multi application of thin coats, ensures that there is maximum coverage to protect the alloy.
Final sizing should not alter weight of projectiles, but simply ensuring a smooth finished surface being achieved at chosen diameter.
From tests done, shooting with hot loads and increased speeds should not remove coating from well coated alloy, as it does not fuse, or melt with heat and friction.
Joe

[bmiller]

Thank you , Hi-tek. The guys I shoot with are very fussy. I will give them a call.