Brazilian 1917

[charliek]

Prices on Brazilian 1917s are lower than other 1917s. If I'm wanting a shooter rather than a piece for a collection are there any problems with the Brazilian guns?

[Char-Gar]

A Brazilian will serve you just as well as a 1917. There were two runs made for the government of Brazil. One before WW2 and one after. There are some differences, but both are good guns.

[rintinglen]

Not a spec of difference that matters to a shooter. If anything, the Brazilian guns are actually better, having the better heat treatment that S&W started using after the Great War.

[Rustyleee]

The Brazilian 1917's were commercial instead of military so at least in theory they would be better quality. I ordered 5 of them back in the 80's when I had an FFL all were rough on the outside from being tossed around a lot. They were great shooters.

[Char-Gar]

The first run of 45 ACP Hand Ejectors for the Navy of Brazil was 25,000 units and was delivered in 1939. These were all new make and are numbered 1 - 25,000 on the back strap. The second run was another 25,000 units and was delivered about 1947. These were made from left over 1917 parts and parts from the first pre-war run. They have no numbers on the backstrap.

I have two of these pistols, one from the first run and one from the second run. The second run used left over frames without the new safety and barrels with the early markings as found on 1917 barrels. The cylinder on my 2nd. run was of newer production and who knows about the internal. This second run used up all the spare 1917 parts that Smith and Wesson had.

Here are a couple of pics of the 1st. and 2nd. Brazilians that live with me. The 2nd. had a factory reblue job and it took quite a bit of talking from me to get it done.

Both are great shooting pistols although the 1st. has a worn barrel. Toward the end of their service life the Brazilian company that eventually became Taurus made some replacement barrels. These barrels don't have Smith and Wesson markings, just the caliber. The stock of extra barrels were imported with these pistols in the 80's and I snagged a couple, just in case. I have not seen them for sale in quite some time now. I don't suppose there were very many of them.

I have had four of these pistols, but these are the one's I managed to hang on to. If I would have know how the prices climbed, I would not have let any of them go when I did.

[Char-Gar]

The Brazilian 1917's were commercial instead of military so at least in theory they would be better quality. I ordered 5 of them back in the 80's when I had an FFL all were rough on the outside from being tossed around a lot. They were great shooters.

Both the Smith and Wesson 1917 and 1938 Brazilian although sold to countries (USA and Brazil) for military use, they were of top commercial quality and no different from what they sold to private individuals.

The Colt 1917 did however have what they called "War Finish" and the metal looks like it was hit on a sanding belt. Here is a pic of a Colt 1917 with the original War Finish.

[bob208]

actually the Brazilian has a rear sight more like a .38-44 heavy-duty. which makes them easier to shoot.

[MtGun44]

+1 on 'sanding belt finish' on the Colt 1917, that is exactly how mine looks.

Brazilians had some hard life, at least some of them. Mine must have been carried
in the jungle, deep corrosion pits at the muzzle exterior and where a holster retainer
strap crossed the frame, but mint inside once the ancient, hardened grease was
removed. Good shooter once I got large enough boolits and hot enough
loads.

.452 hard cast commercial and moderate loads produced 'minute of washtub'
groups at 25 yds.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

+1 on 'sanding belt finish' on the Colt 1917, that is exactly how mine looks.

Brazilians had some hard life, at least some of them. Mine must have been carried
in the jungle, deep corrosion pits at the muzzle exterior and where a holster retainer
strap crossed the frame, but mint inside once the ancient, hardened grease was
removed. Good shooter once I got large enough boolits and hot enough
loads.

.452 hard cast commercial and moderate loads produced 'minute of washtub'
groups at 25 yds.

Bill

It was the same finish Colt used on their black 1911s produced for WWI .

[OBXPilgrim]

The Colt 1917 did however have what they called "War Finish" and the metal looks like it was hit on a sanding belt.

I'm sure anyone that has seen a Winchester M1 Garand knows what a real "war finish" looks like - looks like belt sanding would have been too fussy.

[MtGun44]

Nope, if you want "war finish", look at a 1944 or 45 Mosin-Nagant rifle! I have described it
as looking like a "failed 8th grade shop project". But, then they were sending men out in
two man teams. Front man got a rifle and a few strippers of ammo. Second guy got a ammo
only. He was ordered to follow the front man until "he didn't need the rifle any more"
then pick it up and continue fighting.

In this situation - we can make 3 rifles or one NICE rifle in the same time, your choice. . . . . . .

Bill

[Forrest r]

Molds like this cramer 5f were popular with the 1917 owners.

Attachment 93430

The hollow base helped seal the large bores.

Attachment 93431

[Char-Gar]

I am wondering what kind of pressure it takes to puff out that base to make it fit the larger cylinder throats? The skirt looks substantial, but the alloy would make a difference in the needed pressure.

The 1917 Colts and Smith Brazilians had some pretty big cylinder throats. On the three sixguns in the above pics they run.

1. First run Brazilian - .4565

2. Second Run Brazilian - .455

3. Colt 1917 - .456 - .4565

These old pistols are not for hot rodding with pressures best kept at standard 45 ACP or below.

After WWII Smith and Wesson introduced the 1950 and 1955 Target Models with the difference being the 1955 had a heavier barrel. The cylinder throats remained large at .456 - .4565, at least in the two 1955 Target Models in my safe. In 1989 Smith and Wesson introduced the Model 625 in 45 ACP and tightened the cylinder throats up to .453.

I handload for these sixguns and use 452423 in them all. My mold will cast the .454 - .4545 and I don't size them at all. With a softer alloy they will deliver decent accuracy. Decent means I can hit what I shoot at, but on paper, there is nothing to brag about. They deliver 50 yard jackrabbit accuracy with ease.

The 625 is another critter. I size bullets .453 for this pistol and it deliver fine accuracy.

Here is my favorite 1955 Target Model with a barrel chopped to 4 inches. It is a fine packing pistol. Also is my early 625. I use it for bowling pin matches and it is pure poison on them.

The 4" 1955 gets the same bullet over 7.5/Unique. This load pushes the 242 grain Keith bullet out of the 4" barrel at 940 fps. In the 6.5" 1955 that same load goes 1,050. This load is a real thumper and SHOULD NEVER be used in a Prewar sixgun...I am talking never here.

[Forrest r]

It's cast a .4545 boolit with 9/10bhn range lead. The bullet was supposed to be designed specifically for the 1917's.

Forrest r

[MtGun44]

That Cramer mold makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for sharing. HB is one of the good solutions to oversized throats.

Note that folks with SAAs with supersized throats usually find happiness with Rem or
Win factory lead loads with the old 451190 boolit shape RN with a small flat. These
are HB boolits and dead soft.

Bill

[Catshooter]

Couple of sweet looking sixguns there Char-Gar.


Cat

[The Virginian]

I think oversized or hollowbase bullets would do wonders to improve the accuracy in a worn out S&W Brazilian Contract 1937.

[Outpost75]

I tried the hollowbased Webley 265-grain Mk2 bullets in my S&W .45 ACP hand ejector Model.of 1950 military, and with either .455 equivalent charges of 3.5 grains of Bullseye or full charges of 4.0 to 4.5! grains of Bullseye, accuracy was inferior to Saeco #955 260-grain flatnosed "cowboy" slugs cast of the same heat of alloy, lubed the same way and loaded with the same charges.

Most accurate loads in my Hand Ejector are 4 grains of Bullseye with the 260-grain Saeco #955 and 4.5 grains of Bullseye with the 230-grain Saeco #954 or Accurate 45-240A, all loaded as-cast and unsized, lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox. Using COWW throughout, although I did try the HB Webley bullet with softer 1:30 alloy, still rather "ordinary" grouping no better than WW2- era USGI hardball.

My best loads will do about 2" to 2-1/2" six-shot groups off sandbags at 25 yards. The Webley bullets were 3"+ over a long series of groups. Only mild charges with 3.5 to 4 grains of Bullseye cast of 1:30 alloy averaged less than 3" groups over a series of 30 shots. Bullet holes in target paper were slightly tipped with those.

I later faced off the top of the mold blocks to provide a 1/4" diameter meplat for safety in tubular magazine use un my converted Marlin rifle. These shortened bullets weigh 250-grains and shot 2-1/2" groups from the S&W and about 3-4" at 50 yards from the converted Marlin .45 ACP lever action, with iron sights.

"Acceptable" but not the most accurate bullet. I'll stick to my Saeco cowboy bullets for precision work.

[The Virginian]

Outpost75: That is what I am hearing from other folks that the Webley 262 grain hollow base bullet is average accuracy in the Webley and it is good to know that it doesn't give better accuracy in the Smith and Wesson either. It seems plain base bullets work just fine in either gun....good to know!

[enfieldphile]

The first run of 45 ACP Hand Ejectors for the Navy of Brazil was 25,000 units and was delivered in 1939. These were all new make and are numbered 1 - 25,000 on the back strap. The second run was another 25,000 units and was delivered about 1947. These were made from left over 1917 parts and parts from the first pre-war run. They have no numbers on the backstrap.

I have two of these pistols, one from the first run and one from the second run. The second run used left over frames without the new safety and barrels with the early markings as found on 1917 barrels. The cylinder on my 2nd. run was of newer production and who knows about the internal. This second run used up all the spare 1917 parts that Smith and Wesson had.
.

The big advantage (IMHO) to the first-run guns is the topstrap is flat, with a square notch rear sight.

The second run had mostly 1917 frames. Those have a roundtop frame and "U" shaped rear notch.

I have both, a first-run Brazilian 1937 and a US Army 1917. For my eyes, the Brazilian gun is easier to sight.

As the posters say, go light on any load! They shoot very well w/ cast boolits.

I buy a pair of old, pachmeyer rubber grips @ gun show for $5.00. Then I grind the base of the rubber grips (the grips have a steel insert) so there is a slot. In this way the lanyard loop is retained on the gun and covered.

1937 top, 1917 bottom