Old pp bullets and a Sharps

[excello]

Well , I acquired 60+ of these bullets probably 30 + years ago, . They average 546 gr. and .443 dia. I don’t know who made them, or what mold they came from. I don’t even remember who I got them from! Can anyone identify them by their “appearance” ?

I may try my hand at paper patching these for my original ’74 Sharps in 45-70. I have a couple of pieces of old literature concerning paper patching and BP cartridge shooting from Bill Ballard of Billings, Montana. Plus I have been doing some reading on this forum.

For starters, it sounds like I should find my land diameter, patch up to it, and have a lube cookie and wad over the powder. Then load this combination gently over a settled or pre - compressed powder charge with only light neck tension.

What paper would be good to start with? (Actually, I see now that moderator “ Buckshot “ has several listed in a sticky).

How does KIK 3fg sound for powder ? – picked up 20 pounds of it a couple years ago for $5 / lb, from a target shooter who didn’t care for it in his rifles.

The bore in my old Sharps isn’t all that great – so this may be a “futile, but interesting” exercise !!

Sorry for being so long winded !

Constructive criticism / comments ?

[Don McDowell]

I'ld wrap those in some 8lb seth cole. Stick them on top of 70 grs of that 3f, with a lube cooky and a .060 fiber wad under neath the bullet, and let er rip.

[fouronesix]

Those are good looking bullets but could be most anything? Yep, wrap up to about .450-.451 and give it a go. If they are pretty soft 30:1 alloy or softer they will do fine.

The bullets are not the interesting part of this- it's that original 74!!! Nice looking rifle! What barrel length? Condition of bore?

Likely it has an old style throat which can cause issues with PP bullets unless everything is just right. You might slug the bore and slug the throat with the first 1" of the lands. If it has the old style throat (which it probably does), you can wrap to a diameter that allows for most of the bullet to be seated out pretty far where some portion of the bullet shank to be bore riding. That in turn will allow for a full charge of 65-70 gr BP which will help with full obturation and land engagement. The bullet seated well out and into the lands may also help avoid the problems some bullets have in transitioning across the throat. Anyway good luck!

Oh, as to the questionable bore as you indicated in the OP, it may depend on how questionable. If it still has decent lands right in front of the throat you may be OK. Make sure to really clean after shooting to get rid of any trace of fouling, as once the bore surface is opened up by corrosion the corrosion can escalate. Swab with a Ballistol- water mix at the range then use some hot soapy water patches followed by clean water patches followed by some paper towel drying patches followed by liberal oil. Then run a tight oiled patch down the bore a day later to check.

[montana_charlie]

Likely it has an old style throat which can cause issues with PP bullets unless everything is just right.

... ? ...

[excello]

Thanks for the very helpful info Don M. and fouronesix !

The Sharps is a pretty nice old rifle with a 30" bbl. The bore is only fair - you know - rifling quite visible but worn and pitted. Years ago I shot the old timer with 4198 and a lyman 457193 cast hard and bumped up to .461 dia. I did this figuring it would help with the roughness in the bore. It worked so-so at 50 and 100 yds, but that partial filling of smokeless made me nervous. I think from now on it will be black powder only. It certainly is easy enough to clean the bore!

Heck, it might not ever shoot all that well but it's worth a try I reckon.

[Don McDowell]

The mention of being able to chamber a .461 diameter bullet, would almost indicate someone may have been dinking around in that chamber with a reamer at some point in time.
But that's all over and done with now, so you got to work with what you have.
Looking forward to hearing how these patched bullets work for you.

[fouronesix]

... ? ...

Surely you know the difference between an old style throat used in BP cartridge rifles and the modern type!

[sharpsguy]

fouronesix--Could you explain how the original Sharps chamber causes problems with paper patch?

[elk hunter]

My Sharps, like yours, is a 45-2&1/10th, aka 45-70 and isn't pristine. The barrel measures .363 groove to groove, I don't remember bore size right now. It will shoot fairly well with most bullets .460 or larger ahead of 28 grains of 4198, I never shot much black powder in it. In mine the bullet must be seated out to engage the rifling, if the bullet has to jump to engage the lead it shoots more like a shotgun. When I got it in a trade about fifty years ago it came with a Lyman mould, dies and a couple of boxes of brass. I'm sure my friends thought I was crazy when I traded a new Remington 700 in 22-250, that I paid $119.00 for, for the Sharps and fifty dollars in cash. I probably spent the money on something equally foolish.

Enjoy your rifle, the old ones are a treasure that we are only the caretakers of for the future.

[montana_charlie]

... ? ...

Surely you know the difference between an old style throat used in BP cartridge rifles and the modern type!

Yes, I do. The original Sharps chambers handled paper patched ammo exceedingly well, and did not suffer from the 'handicaps' of modern chambers which cause people to employ various 'workarounds' to get good results.

With the old originals, it was clean case, reload, and shoot. Bullets which sat extremely far out of the case only did so in order to allow an increased powder charge ... not to protect the bullet from 'damage' in the chamber.

CM

[Lead pot]

Likely it has an old style throat which can cause issues with PP bullets unless everything is just right.

I think here mostlikley is a statement from a person that has never had any experience shooting an original Sharps. The old Sharps 74's had a very flat tapered lead from 3-1/2° to about 5° from what I can measure of the chamber casts I had and have. The 78's had a little closer to the 12° about the time the gilded bullets and cordite powder came out. The long tapered throats were a lead and PP throat unlike the 45° now used.
I have changed all of my BPCR to the original throats and all have eliminated the problems of lead and paper rings and lead fouling problems and accuracy has improved in all of my modern Sharps rifles.

[excello]

Thanks for all of the comments ( and compliments on my Sharps ). I think I will make a chamber and throat casting with cerrosafe - that should yield some interesting info for starters.

excello

[fouronesix]

[QUOTE=Lead pot;2309179]I think here mostlikley is a statement from a person that has never had any experience shooting an original Sharps.

Sir, you are quite wrong and have no clue about what I have, what I shoot and what experience I have with these rifles- both original and modern repro. So I'll let you and the clique of mutual admiration society experts here continue on.

[sharpsguy]

Just because you happen to own an original Sharps and have run a couple of jacketed rounds of smokeless through it only means that you HAVE shot it. It doesn't mean that you know HOW to shoot it, or understand how paper patch works in these guns. Lead Pot knows how. Trust me.

[montana_charlie]

I think here mostlikley is a statement from a person that has never had any experience shooting an original Sharps.

Sir, you are quite wrong and have no clue about what I have, what I shoot and what experience I have with these rifles- both original and modern repro. So I'll let you and the clique of mutual admiration society experts here continue on.

The statement you gave for the new guy, purporting to be advice from an experienced one said,
"Likely it has an old style throat which can cause issues with PP bullets unless everything is just right."

That reasoning might apply to an early Shiloh Sharps rifle, but not to an 'original' Sharps rifle.
While it gives no clue about what you have, what you shoot, or what experience you have acquired, it does illustrate that you don't know how the chamber of an original Sharps accepts bullets paper patched to bore diameter.

Far from needing to be "just right", getting decent results while shooting paper patch in an (unmodified) original Sharps is about as easy as falling off a log.

The early Shiloh Sharps rifles ... those made in Farmingdale ... do you know anything about shooting paper patch in them?

CM

[Chill Wills]

Well , I acquired 60+ of these bullets probably 30 + years ago, . They average 546 gr. and .443 dia. I don’t know who made them, or what mold they came from. I don’t even remember who I got them from! Can anyone identify them by their “appearance” ?I got a mould that produces bullet of this general design made by Tom Ballard 25 years ago. Tom made semi custom bullet moulds for BPCR PP bullets. Most of the bullets I saw coming from him were similar to the ones in your photo. the variations were straight side or tapered and flat base or cupped. The basic nose shape AKA bullet profile, that I saw anyway, all looked like yours. These were cut into and cast in Lyman mould blanks which he got from Lyman.

Yours appears to be a straight side, cup base. Is that correct?

The manor you described to patch them and load them will work for starters. Refine from there. There is a lot of information here on shooting patched bullets. Most all good. Michael Rix

I may try my hand at paper patching these for my original ’74 Sharps in 45-70. I have a couple of pieces of old literature concerning paper patching and BP cartridge shooting from Bill Ballard of Billings, Montana. Plus I have been doing some reading on this forum.

For starters, it sounds like I should find my land diameter, patch up to it, and have a lube cookie and wad over the powder. Then load this combination gently over a settled or pre - compressed powder charge with only light neck tension.

What paper would be good to start with? (Actually, I see now that moderator “ Buckshot “ has several listed in a sticky).

How does KIK 3fg sound for powder ? – picked up 20 pounds of it a couple years ago for $5 / lb, from a target shooter who didn’t care for it in his rifles.

The bore in my old Sharps isn’t all that great – so this may be a “futile, but interesting” exercise !!

Sorry for being so long winded !

Constructive criticism / comments ?

[Lead pot]

The only lead bullet chamber that I know of that has not changed since it came about in 1845 or 1850 is the .22 rimfire. If you look at it you will see that it's alot like the original Sharps throats.

Excello;

When you get that chamber cast made please post it with measurements if you would please. I been gathering as many casts or measurements of the Sharps calibers and the rate of twist of the rifling.
That 74 is a fine looking rifle and you will not hurt shooting it with BLK powder and lead or PP bullets like you have, just keep it clean when your finished.
When you get your bore diameter find a paper for those bullets that will get you to bore diameter or if some of those bullets are tapered you will find that patched to groove or slightly under groove that they will fly very good.
Tom Ballard's moulds I use are nose poured and tapered and the base can be switched to cup or flat based. Very good moulds.

[RMulhern]

I was gonna make a post but after reading post #13....I think I'll just bow out!!