Bullet Seating Questions - Inconsisent seating depth and crushed cast bullets

[Mr. Farknocker]

I've got two issues with bullet seating that I would like your input on. I'm using Lee dies and am not satisfied with the consistency and, with respect to one particular caliber, the way it deforms cast bullets

Inconsistent seating depth.

I load .270 with 135 gr Sierra Matchkings HPBT. Being target ammo, the bullet is very long in the nose with an almost non-existent meplat. Although difficult to see, the shape on some of the meplats is inconsistent resulting in varying overall bullet lengths. When the lee bullet seating die is used, I often get varying seating depths and, consequently, varying OAL. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the bullet seating stem so that the stem contacts the ogive rather than the bullet tip. I'm hoping that seating the bullet on the ogive rather than the meplat will lead to more consistent OAL when measured from the case head to the point of contact on the ogive. Will this modification alleviate my problem or am I running in the wrong direction?

Bullet Crush

I just started casting 77 gr. SWC .32 ACP, using wheel weights. The mold has been throwing bullets of .315 diameter which I think is fairly large for .32 ACP. When I place the bullet on the case and run the bullet up into the seating die with the bullet seating stem backed all the way out, the bullet often gets stuck in the die. When I seat the bullet, the crown of the meplat is deformed and the sides of the bullet is shiny as though the bullet has been resized. My thoughts are that the die is tapered which causes the bullet to get stuck in the die. Other reloaders have experienced similar problems and have suggesed honing the die as a solution but I'd like to eliminate reloader error before resorting to hogging out the die. As far as the side skirts been squeezed, my thinking is that the first step is to resize the bullet before loading and re-verify that the problem still exists before trying something else. The bore on my .32 ACP runs .313 so I'm shooting for a resized diameter of .314.

Sorry for the confusing description. I'll try to post some pics if I can to make it easier to understand.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[462]

My experience has been that Lee seating dies are the least friendly, when it comes to fat-for-caliber cast boolits, as they made skinny boolits out of fat ones. Also, from experience, enlarging one required much time and effort, and the crimp ring became almost non-existent and completely useless. Since I started using Lyman, RCBS, and Hornady seating dies exclusively, seating fat boolits has never been a problem.

[1hole]

"When the lee bullet seating die is used, I often get varying seating depths and, consequently, varying OAL. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the bullet seating stem so that the stem contacts the ogive rather than the bullet tip."

Lee's (nor anyone elses) seater plug pushes on the meplat, if that were true your OAL would be vary consistant. The meaningless slight OAL rifle variation you're getting is because of the nose length variations you know the bullets have, no seating die can fix that.

Lee's seaters work very well partly because they ARE tight. If you want a sloppier fitting seater die so your oversized bullets can freely drop through get another brand.

[r1kk1]

Are you using a bullet comparator to aid in measurement? I have sorted bullets before seating them to help make them more consistent with jacketed bullets.

Take care

r1kk1

[462]

Lee's seaters work very well partly because they ARE tight. If you want a sloppier fitting seater die so your oversized bullets can freely drop through get another brand.

It's not a matter of wanting a "sloppier fitting seater die", it's a matter of wanting a seating die that is of the correct size and of proper fit and doesn't damage boolits. I have only about 20 seater dies, all of them are of the correct size and proper fit, none of them shave lead, done of them mark noses, none of them are Lee.

Aside: I like and use some Lee dies. For rifle cartridges, I use Lee collet neck sizer dies exclusively, and when a rifle crimp is needed, Lee rifle collet crimp dies. I'm not loyal to any one brand of dies, my die sets are a motely collection, sometimes consisting of three different brands.

[dromia]

Yep a bullet comparator is needed to determine if it is the seating depth that is off or just the variations in condom bullet length.

[SteveK]

I've got two issues with bullet seating that I would like your input on. I'm using Lee dies and am not satisfied with the consistency and, with respect to one particular caliber, the way it deforms cast bullets

Inconsistent seating depth.

I load .270 with 135 gr Sierra Matchkings HPBT. Being target ammo, the bullet is very long in the nose with an almost non-existent meplat. Although difficult to see, the shape on some of the meplats is inconsistent resulting in varying overall bullet lengths. When the lee bullet seating die is used, I often get varying seating depths and, consequently, varying OAL. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the bullet seating stem so that the stem contacts the ogive rather than the bullet tip. I'm hoping that seating the bullet on the ogive rather than the meplat will lead to more consistent OAL when measured from the case head to the point of contact on the ogive. Will this modification alleviate my problem or am I running in the wrong direction?

Bullet Crush

I just started casting 77 gr. SWC .32 ACP, using wheel weights. The mold has been throwing bullets of .315 diameter which I think is fairly large for .32 ACP. When I place the bullet on the case and run the bullet up into the seating die with the bullet seating stem backed all the way out, the bullet often gets stuck in the die. When I seat the bullet, the crown of the meplat is deformed and the sides of the bullet is shiny as though the bullet has been resized. My thoughts are that the die is tapered which causes the bullet to get stuck in the die. Other reloaders have experienced similar problems and have suggesed honing the die as a solution but I'd like to eliminate reloader error before resorting to hogging out the die. As far as the side skirts been squeezed, my thinking is that the first step is to resize the bullet before loading and re-verify that the problem still exists before trying something else. The bore on my .32 ACP runs .313 so I'm shooting for a resized diameter of .314.

Sorry for the confusing description. I'll try to post some pics if I can to make it easier to understand.

Thanks in advance for your input.

I have experienced the same phenomena more so when loading a pointy pullet as opposed to a flat point, but any differences in seating depths, even a few thousandths still mystify me. My suspicion is that different brands of seating dies contact the boolit in different places along the ogive which makes sense. However, when a single brand of die seats the same bullet at differing depths of a few thousandths, that drives me crazy! Maybe the answer is a comparator, I don't know. I expect store-bought, jacketed, bullets to be more consistent. I think I might be expecting too much. Bottom line, does a seating depth which varies by only a few thousandths really matter anyway?

[1hole]

"It's not a matter of wanting a "sloppier fitting seater die", it's a matter of wanting a seating die that is of the correct size and of proper fit and doesn't damage boolits. "

Define a looser fit as you wish. Fact is, Lee's bullet guides are closer to normal jacketed bullet diameter than any other conventional dies and a tighter fitting die obviously insures straighter seating than a loose fit.

That none of your dies are Lee tells me only ONE thing; you don't buy Lee. IF you did, you too would have some. Big deal. ??

[462]

Mr. Farknocker,
I apologize that your thread has drifted.

Further defense of undue criticism regarding my solution to your problem, and to my choice of reloading equipment is unnecessary.

[r1kk1]

I'm not loyal to any one brand of dies, my die sets are a motely collection, sometimes consisting of three different brands.

Some of my toolheads are a motley crew also. Redding profile crimp dies, m-dies from Lyman or CH4D, etc. Some Herters stuff.

Take care

r1kk1

[Mr. Farknocker]

Lee's website states:

The bullet seating plug that comes with the die set is as close to generic as we can make it. If you find that the bullet seating plug deforms the nose of the bullet you are trying to seat, or does not seat the bullet deep enough, we can make a custom bullet seating plug to fit your bullet. For this we would need a sample bullet and payment of $8 plus $6 Shipping.

The seating plug does not seat the bullet by pushing on the nose of the bullet. It is a hollow punch that pushes on the ogive of the bullet. Because of that, any differential between the point the bullet and the point the bullet seating plug contacts the ogive results in variable overall length. +/- .010" is not unreasonable.

If you want to confirm this, remove the bullet seating plug from the die. Place it over the bullet and now measure overall length of several rounds. It should be more consistent.

Seating a bullet on the meplat does appear to lead to larger variances in OAL as opposed to seating on the ogive. The picture attached seems to confirm this as does my experience.



Following Lee's FAQ, I pulled the bullet seating stems on my Lee dies to see what was there. As they appear from left to right in the pic: .32 ACP, .223 Rem, and .270 Win.:



Looks like the 223 and 270 seat on the ogive which should yield pretty consistent results. I made my own .270 bullet comparator with a drill press. Took me just five minutes with a nut from an unopen pack that I obtained from a hardware store a while ago. Haven't tried it yet. Hope it works.



I've also attached a couple of pics of the cast .32 ACP boolits and how they appear before and after they have been loaded. You can see the side skirts have been polished as though the bullet was resized when the bullet was seated using the Lee die. You can also see the deformed crown. Looks like the concave seating plug deformed the crown. I flat one may work better. I may either spring for a new one from lee or fill the cavity with some epoxy resin.

[Boyscout]

Life at the reloading bench has been so much easier for me since I separated the seating step from the crimping step on handgun and rifle.

[atr]

+1 for Boyscout....
seat ,,,,then crimp...
some cartridges are less forgiving than others....and for them seating with crimping doesn't work well

[Wayne Smith]

I had the same problem with my 8x57R Steyr Lee seat die - It simply isn't made for cast boolit diameters. I sent it back to Lee with a request that they open it up for a .332" boolit. After an e-mail exchange they understood what I wanted and why. It now works perfectly.

You don't have to "hog it out". Lee will do it for you, precisely.

[Char-Gar]

" I load .270 with 135 gr Sierra Matchkings HPBT. Being target ammo, the bullet is very long in the nose with an almost non-existent meplat. Although difficult to see, the shape on some of the meplats is inconsistent resulting in varying overall bullet lengths. When the lee bullet seating die is used, I often get varying seating depths and, consequently, varying OAL. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the bullet seating stem so that the stem contacts the ogive rather than the bullet tip. I'm hoping that seating the bullet on the ogive rather than the meplat will lead to more consistent OAL when measured from the case head to the point of contact on the ogive. Will this modification alleviate my problem or am I running in the wrong direction?"

I will leave it to others to deal with cast bullet seating. Getting inconsistent seating with good quality jacketed bullet tells me you have a serious problem with your equipment at some point.

If the seating die is locked down tight in the press, the seating depth should be the same ever after. If the die is not loose in the press, than the issue is the press itself. Any decent quality should be able to seat those Sierra Matchkings with no issues. I do not use Lee dies, so I cannot speak to any design aberrations there may or may not be in them.

I had your problem only one time and that was with a Lee turret press. There was enough slop/play between the turret and the press body to introduce inconsistent seating depths in 30-06 match ammo. My solution was to throw the press in the garbage and go back to my old Pacific single stage press.

Other than a few collet sizing dies and some push through bullet sizers, I avoid Lee equipment.

I do understand the Lee fans will flock to the defense of "Big Red", but many of us have not been happy with out Lee experience.

You did not tell us what kind of press you have, but the more parts it has, the more places there are to introduce play/slop or whatever that result in inconsistencies. I simply relate my experience to you for what it is worth.

An old cast iron single stage press by RCBS, Lyman, Pacific, CH, Herters, Echo and others will last several lifetimes and with good quality dies will produce high grade ammo each and every time.

[Mr. Farknocker]

" I load .270 with 135 gr Sierra Matchkings HPBT. Being target ammo, the bullet is very long in the nose with an almost non-existent meplat. Although difficult to see, the shape on some of the meplats is inconsistent resulting in varying overall bullet lengths. When the lee bullet seating die is used, I often get varying seating depths and, consequently, varying OAL. I'm thinking about drilling a hole in the bullet seating stem so that the stem contacts the ogive rather than the bullet tip. I'm hoping that seating the bullet on the ogive rather than the meplat will lead to more consistent OAL when measured from the case head to the point of contact on the ogive. Will this modification alleviate my problem or am I running in the wrong direction?"

I will leave it to others to deal with cast bullet seating. Getting inconsistent seating with good quality jacketed bullet tells me you have a serious problem with your equipment at some point.

If the seating die is locked down tight in the press, the seating depth should be the same ever after. If the die is not loose in the press, than the issue is the press itself. Any decent quality should be able to seat those Sierra Matchkings with no issues. I do not use Lee dies, so I cannot speak to any design aberrations there may or may not be in them.

I had your problem only one time and that was with a Lee turret press. There was enough slop/play between the turret and the press body to introduce inconsistent seating depths in 30-06 match ammo. My solution was to throw the press in the garbage and go back to my old Pacific single stage press.

Other than a few collet sizing dies and some push through bullet sizers, I avoid Lee equipment.

I do understand the Lee fans will flock to the defense of "Big Red", but many of us have not been happy with out Lee experience.

You did not tell us what kind of press you have, but the more parts it has, the more places there are to introduce play/slop or whatever that result in inconsistencies. I simply relate my experience to you for what it is worth.

An old cast iron single stage press by RCBS, Lyman, Pacific, CH, Herters, Echo and others will last several lifetimes and with good quality dies will produce high grade ammo each and every time.

I use a Lee Challenger Breech Lock single stage press. Subsequent to posting my initial question, I removed the seating stem from the .270 bullet seating die and discovered that the stem seats the bullet on the ogive rather than the bullet tip. This should yield consistent bullet lengths when measured from the case head to the ogive. I also realized that the measurement of the OAL will always yield varying results due to the way the tips are truncated during the manufacturing process and that OAL (i.e., measuring from case head to bullet tip) is only really relevant for purposes of making sure the bullet will fit in the magazine and/or load properly. From now on, I will use a bullet comparator to ensure that the seating of my bullets is consistent.