Casting Room Indoors or Not

[dromia]

OK, I admit that I didn't fully read ALL the replies. But I'm a trifle shocked at how many are casting indoors with only a range hood or worse as an airflow control.

There's ONE thread back on page 1 of the replies that I agreed with. And that was the one that suggested a full on chemical style fume hood setup where you have an exhaust fan sucking air through an opening into a casting area. This fume hood area being closed in on the sides and top and has a limited entry area that let's your hands into the casting area. The access opening should be small enough that the exhaust fan is strong enough to maintain a constant airflow inwards through the opening. I'd even go so far as to suggest that a "salad bar" glass area in front of your face be used to further limit the access area and avoid you having to use a face mask since none of your face would be exposed. Tempered glass only of course. Or possibly acrylic. Just in case some lead is propelled up into the glass.

Seems like overkill? If you want to work on this stuff inside I'd suggest that it's an all or nothing situation. A range hood only vent out those that rise up to within the capture range. The rest is free to float out into your face and out into the room. The only way to properly control such a thing is with the same method that is used for paint booths and chemical fume hoods. And that means you need an exhaust fan that is good enough to deal with the opening. On a paint booth that means something big and noisy that moves LOTS of cubic feet per minute. Reduce the area and use a face window to further reduce the opening size and suddenly you find that you can get away with something small and quiet that isn't much stronger than a range hood fan.

For example, when I look at Dale53's pictures I see the casting area but no range hood. So clearly the range hood is up at some point outside of the top of the picture framing. There is a LOT of open area between the pot and the hood. So the ONLY fumes that will be vented out are those which happen to rise up to some few inches from the hood. The rest if free to be breathed in and float around the shop to further be inhaled.

Dale, I'm not using you out of malice of any form. Rather I hope you'll take my critique in a friendly and concerned manner for a fellow shooter that is near your age, given your user name and join date, and would like to see you live a lot longer without any risk of lead poisoning.

What exactly is your vent hood venting?

[BCRider]

.........Lead does not fume at the temps you cast at, you would have to vaporize it to be in danger from lead fumes. Lead dust is another issue but that can be managed with gloves and keeping the casting area wiped down.

If this is the case then I can see why we've gotten away with our respective arrangements without developing lead poisoning.

So that just leaves the smells and/or smoke from the fluxing along with any contaminants on recycled lead that do burn or gas off during the initial smelting down.

Dromia, at present I only cast outdoors in my back yard when the weather is nice. But I've used setups similar to that shown in the past for airbrushing. And when my new metal working shop is done I plan on a slightly larger setup than the range hood setup shown in the sketch for solvent use. It'll likely also see use as my casting area as the solvents themselves will be stored on the other side of the shop since this same fume removal area will also be my welding and heavy grinding bench. The idea being that the fumes and dust from solvents, paints, grinding and welding will all be generated in the same area and sucked away by the one system. Obviously I'll need to clean between the different uses.

[dromia]

So you will be smelting and alloying indoors and it is the detritus fumes you wish to remove? There should be no lead fumes under normal casting and smelting conditions as the lead should never get that hot.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

OK, I admit that I didn't fully read ALL the replies. But I'm a trifle shocked at how many are casting indoors with only a range hood or worse as an airflow control.

Seems like overkill? If you want to work on this stuff inside I'd suggest that it's an all or nothing situation. A range hood only vent out those that rise up to within the capture range. The rest is free to float out into your face and out into the room. The only way to properly control such a thing is with the same method that is used for paint booths and chemical fume hoods. And that means you need an exhaust fan that is good enough to deal with the opening. On a paint booth that means something big and noisy that moves LOTS of cubic feet per minute. Reduce the area and use a face window to further reduce the opening size and suddenly you find that you can get away with something small and quiet that isn't much stronger than a range hood fan.

If you tumble fired brass with primers intact, I hope you take similar care as you suggest above as that is an actual situation where there is likely airborne lead particulate that can be inhaled or otherwise contaminate the area it's in.
Good Luck,
Jon

[alamogunr]

OK, I admit that I didn't fully read ALL the replies. But I'm a trifle shocked at how many are casting indoors with only a range hood or worse as an airflow control.

There's ONE thread back on page 1 of the replies that I agreed with. And that was the one that suggested a full on chemical style fume hood setup where you have an exhaust fan sucking air through an opening into a casting area. This fume hood area being closed in on the sides and top and has a limited entry area that let's your hands into the casting area. The access opening should be small enough that the exhaust fan is strong enough to maintain a constant airflow inwards through the opening. I'd even go so far as to suggest that a "salad bar" glass area in front of your face be used to further limit the access area and avoid you having to use a face mask since none of your face would be exposed. Tempered glass only of course. Or possibly acrylic. Just in case some lead is propelled up into the glass.

Seems like overkill? If you want to work on this stuff inside I'd suggest that it's an all or nothing situation. A range hood only vent out those that rise up to within the capture range. The rest is free to float out into your face and out into the room. The only way to properly control such a thing is with the same method that is used for paint booths and chemical fume hoods. And that means you need an exhaust fan that is good enough to deal with the opening. On a paint booth that means something big and noisy that moves LOTS of cubic feet per minute. Reduce the area and use a face window to further reduce the opening size and suddenly you find that you can get away with something small and quiet that isn't much stronger than a range hood fan.

For example, when I look at Dale53's pictures I see the casting area but no range hood. So clearly the range hood is up at some point outside of the top of the picture framing. There is a LOT of open area between the pot and the hood. So the ONLY fumes that will be vented out are those which happen to rise up to some few inches from the hood. The rest if free to be breathed in and float around the shop to further be inhaled.

Dale, I'm not using you out of malice of any form. Rather I hope you'll take my critique in a friendly and concerned manner for a fellow shooter that is near the same age as me, given your user name and join date, and would like to see you live a lot longer without any risk of lead poisoning.

It's been nice associating with you guys. I'm apparently not long for this world. I cast inside my A/C/Heated shop. I only open the door and use a fan to exhaust the flux smoke. The next time they test my blood, I'll have them test for lead but I don't expect to change anything.

I have done all my cleaning up of WW outside away from people, mostly because of the stink. I've got enough stash that I won't be doing that anymore.

My casting sessions are usually a couple of hours at most and usually only about twice a month. Sometimes, when I'm ladle casting large boolets, I use a plumbers furnace outside. I don't use propane inside.

I would never recommend to anyone else that they follow my example.

[MGySgt]

Well - I am 62 and have always cast indoors - According to my doctor I have no issues with lead content.

[BCRider]

I stand corrected on the lead fume issue. I would have thought that any time there's a liquid state that there's going to be SOME amount of fumes. But it seems that's not the case.

I guess I went a little over the top on the safety thing. But I honestly had the best of intentions for wanting to keep folks safe.

For all the rest of the activities I mentioned above I'll still be making up that fume hood like area just to keep solvent, grinding and welding fumes out of the garage/shop and connected house anyway. And since I'll have the area set up I may as well use it for my casting since it'll handle the fluxing mess as well.

I tried tumbling when I started out. But I found it a pain to get the media out of the casings and the insides were left as dirty as they started. I switched over to washing my casings with or without primers still in using an ultrasonic cleaner with a mix of water, laundry soap and vinegar based on recipes I found on the web. This works for me so much more effectively on both the inside and outside that I gave my tumbler away to someone that wanted a third machine. So other than handling the dirty brass while dry it's not an issue.

[Recluse]

I cast inside my A/C/Heated shop. I only open the door and use a fan to exhaust the flux smoke. The next time they test my blood, I'll have them test for lead but I don't expect to change anything.

Like you, I cast inside my a/c - heated shop. More often than not, I have the a/c going because I live in Texas and it gets hellishly hot here and when the urge or desire to cast hits (which is weekly, it seems) I'm not into sweating simply for the sheer fun of it.

Here is an older shot of my casting table. It's in the middle of the shop, underneath the ceiling fan. To the left is a wall-unit a/c and to the right is the door, and also two windows that I can open up in cooler weather to vent flux fumes.



I built a sink in the upper right hand corner and plumbed it so I could have ready access to water for water-dropping as well as keeping a wet towel next to the furnace for BruceB speed-casting.

As others have accurately pointed out, keep your alloy temps down and you have zero worries or concerns about harmful lead fumes. The one and only time I ever had elevated lead levels in my blood was during a long stretch of particularly heavy shooting in an indoor range with extremely poor ventilation. Combine that with some sloppy handling of the fired brass during pick-up off the floor and separating and tumbling, and it all added up to elevated levels.

During the next six-plus months, I did no shooting or brass sorting or tumbling, but did continue to reload and to cast and smelt. Lab tests subsequently showed a return to normal levels. (Also consumed a lot of Vitamin C, lots of water, and upped my daily vitamin intake.)

[Smoke4320]

At least you wrote back to correct your self .. I can totally respect that

I stand corrected on the lead fume issue. I would have thought that any time there's a liquid state that there's going to be SOME amount of fumes. But it seems that's not the case.

I guess I went a little over the top on the safety thing. But I honestly had the best of intentions for wanting to keep folks safe.

For all the rest of the activities I mentioned above I'll still be making up that fume hood like area just to keep solvent, grinding and welding fumes out of the garage/shop and connected house anyway. And since I'll have the area set up I may as well use it for my casting since it'll handle the fluxing mess as well.

I tried tumbling when I started out. But I found it a pain to get the media out of the casings and the insides were left as dirty as they started. I switched over to washing my casings with or without primers still in using an ultrasonic cleaner with a mix of water, laundry soap and vinegar based on recipes I found on the web. This works for me so much more effectively on both the inside and outside that I gave my tumbler away to someone that wanted a third machine. So other than handling the dirty brass while dry it's not an issue.

[dverna]

My gut tells me that if something is in the liquid state, there will be vapors released. I have found articles on the vapor pressure of lead - so it has been studied. Frankly, they are too "learned" for me.

I will continue to recommend that casting indoors without a fume hood is not a good idea. It is the safe position. If nothing else, the fumes from fluxing would get me in trouble with the SO.

[Three44s]

I have a man cave for loading/casting that I only currently load and size in.

Over the past 20+ years that I have cast, I've been smelting outside and firmly believe in continuing that practice.

My casting has largely been outside but lately I have been using our attached garage for that. We have good side windows with a steel topped work bench there. I'll have both side windows open, both man doors open and the wide car door open (16 feet) as well.

What I notice is that wind directions change and my smoke is not consistent ........ it's going out the window sometimes ..... another time it's going for the big door and then that said ..... it's circling in my face ...... nothing to count on ..... lots of ventilation but no control on smoke removal too much of the time.

Now I don't want to get in an arguement over vapor pressure and liquid state vs. gaseous state. And while it's encouraging that some of the posters have direct data on their blood levels and how indoor range use affects their lead levels more than casting ever could ........ I still am cautious about what is my fluxing smoke.

I DO plan on casting indoors in my new man cave but here's what I built in to it:

On the wall adjacent to where the casting bench is going to go will be a fresh air inlet that allows air from the larger portion of the barn to enter the load/casting room. It's right along side and right below where the pot will go. Overhead, there is a four inch air duct plumbed into the ceiling. When the project is complete and before I am going to cast there, I will build or have built a sufficient hood ..... not a kitchen hood but a more substantial unit more along the lines of a small commercial hood.

I am still debating on how low or close above the lead pot to locate it. With this much hood capability, what you don't want to do is bleed too much of the heat from around the lead pot away and unnecessarily lower your alloy temp.

Now, you can call it overkill ....... that's OK ........ but for the small investment to do this at the time we built the area, I think it will be prudent.

Consider this: You take a non-hooded space and provide substantial ventilation during times of needing heating or cooling and tell me that you are not wasting heating or cooling dollars?

I plan on having a good amount of adjustment of incoming air and the vented as well. I'll have a postive control of my work space air with minimum loss of my "comfort air".

The way I set up my fresh air I can even duct it right up through my casting table and around the lead pot as I chose.

When I get this all done I'll be glad to take some pics and post them.

Best regards

Three 44s

[MaryB]

I repaired electronics for 27 years and dealt with lead solder daily. Head right over the fumes most of the time. No lead levels in my blood the entire time, I had it checked every 6 months because works insurance required it. Found this also

Melting point 600.61 K, 327.46 °C, 621.43 °F
Boiling point 2022 K, 1749 °C, 3180 °F (at its boiling point is starts to emit vapors, which is your concern.)

if you have your pot at 3,000 degrees you are going to have problems, like a melted pot, bench on fire...

[Newshooter]

Ok so I went in today and got the process started for the new house. We should have a drawing in 7 to 10 days. I choose not to go above the garage with the man cave but added 10 more feet to the back of the garage which put the room at 36 x 10 with 2 windows and 2 doors one from the garage and one to outside. I was going to put a roof over the door to have cover when I smelt but that was going to make the house look funny so I will just have to suck it up and do it in the driveway on nice days. There is a lot of good advise on here and is going to be put to good use. I have decided that I am going to put in some sort of a hood to suck out the fumes/smoke from casting and I really like the idea of the fresh air pipe coming in by the hood. I was just going to open the window a crack to let in fresh air but having a pipe coming in from outside directly by the hood area would keep the vent from sucking all the heated/cooled air out. I don't plan on starting the house till around October so its a little ways away yet.

[snuffy]

Fumes, smoke, vapors? Most discussions about lead fears in casting have those terms in them. But what do they mean?

Any carbon put on molten lead will smoke. Is it good for you? Probably not, unless in great concentration. Meaning not being able to see clearly across the casting space.

Fumes? Just what does THAT mean? If you're confusing fumes with vapor, then lead vapor is really bad for you.

But the fact that lead does not throw very much vapor under 1200 degrees, is seldom known to those that have heard the EPA's alarmist warnings,(BS), in the past. It's true that any liquid will have some vapor on the surface. Lead does too, BUT being a heavy vapor, it hugs the surface of the melt. Unless you have an overflowing pot, or somehow disturb the calm boundary layer on the surface of the melt, (hint-hint, a fan blowing the "FUMES" away from you), there's little danger.

I started casting in the basement of my folks home. It was dark, dank, and cool down there. No ventilation. Now my casting set-up is in my loading room, (spare bedroom), no ventilation in winter, only 2 small windows in the summer. I have my lead blood levels done every 18 months through the VA. Still under 10, last one was 16 months ago, 7.0. I'm 67, started casting when I was 25.

[BCRider]

Thee44's and Newshooter, I'd urge you to reconsider the use of the outside vent to supply a fume hood setup. The whole point of a fume hood is to encourage the flow of air in through the access opening so it passes by the user and avoids any air from in the protection area being able to flow back into the room. By providing an outside air source you'll reduce the airflow velocity at the access opening which means you just need to run the fan faster.

Instead I'd go in two other directions if you're taking this fume hood thing seriously. First and foremost is to use an upper "face window" setup as I showed in the sketch. This aids by reducing the size of the access opening. It should be on hinges so you can flip it up out of the way for full access when not being used as a fume hood. On top of this side shields or adjustable curtains can be added to the opening to further reduce the access opening size. When being used in a minimal size option you can then use a multi speed exhaust fan at a lower setting and still maintain a proper airflow velocity across the whole area of the opening. By closing off the area as much as practical you reduce the need to suck away your heated or cooled down interior air with no reduction in fume protection for the room and yourselves.

The key is that with or without an outside vent you still need enough air movement to generate the minimum flow velocity over the area of the access opening. With an exterior vent adding to this you simply need a bigger and more powerful exhaust fan. So the key to reducing the removal of your shop air is just to close down the opening as far as practical and turn down the fan so there's a slight but easily noticable airflow into the opening. A light string or slip of paper held at the opening should bend towards the flow at any point by some amount. It doesn't need to snap horizontal to be effective....

By using this adjustable opening setup and a multi speed fan you have the option of a small opening for solvent or casting or you can open it up wide and run it on "full tilt boogie" when spray painting.

Now, if you can't find a multi speed fan for a reasonable price then an outside vent with a damper on it could be used as a vent which lets you feed extra air into the hood to reduce the shop air inflow. For when you use the hood setup with a small opening you can open the vent quite a ways to reduce the shop air inflow to the ideal velocity. For this type of flow controlling I'd want the cold air vent up high near to the exhaust fan so it's not drawing the cold or hot outside air in over my hands. It would also avoid excess drafts around the working area.

For those of you poo-pooing the idea of this for lead control fumes consider that it's still a nice setup for indoor use even if it ONLY controls the smoke and fumes given off during ingot making or due to the fluxing process. And even for using this during solvent cleaning of our guns since it avoids the fumes from solvents being breathed in or stinking up the house if the shop shares a common door.

[a.squibload]

You have the airflow concept figured out.
Exact description of an acid hood used in a
lab or IC production facility.

For those who want an outside air supply
I suggest it be near the hood, not INTO the
hood. Air will flow from the room into the
hood keeping stinky stuff from entering the
room. Just have to sacrifice some conditioned
air!

[Three44s]

I will have control of my outside air source and over placement of where and how it enters the "pot" area.

Also, after a few decades of casting ....... I also trust my senses to tell me which way the smoke moving.

If the outside air helps define it's journey into the hood and it needs refinement, I'll refine it. If it proves fool hardy ...... I'll axe it.

For point of clairification, I don't intend to discharge the fresh air so close to hood inlet so as to be counterproductive. The closest I could conceive releasing it would be below the pot base.

First I'll try it without further ducting and that places it a four or five feet away and below the future casting bench.

I've cast outdoors. I have smelted entirely outdoors. I've cast in a garage with all the doors open. In all these instances, I have dealt with smoke. I trust my senses and native intelligence enough to know when I have improved on those "open air" solutions.

Best regards

Three 44s

[b2948kevin]

I don't always cast boolits, but when I do, I do it inside with the windows and garage door open...

[dilly]

Don't forget to account for weight. Probably not an issue for normal rooms but if you want to store thousands of pounds of lead in your reloading room that might be a consideration when building.

This is a heavy hobby.

[David2011]

Here is an older shot of my casting table. It's in the middle of the shop, underneath the ceiling fan. To the left is a wall-unit a/c and to the right is the door, and also two windows that I can open up in cooler weather to vent flux fumes.

Recluse,

Is that a Seal Team target in the corner?