Why the cost????

[felix]

Because RanchDog had no choice at the time. ... felix

[runfiverun]

he still deals with them.
he is working on a 330gr boolit for his 454 casull [levergun] with them right now.

i'm not bashing lee i like the mold i have.
if i have to replace it ,it will be with a design i like better.
i'm more worked up with the boolits design and it's limitations, than i am with mold material.
one thing i learned about molds long ago.
they only make boolits or they don't, if they don't then fix it ,, or throw it away.
and that producton molds are designed to fit just about everything,which means they don't really fit anything i have.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=jmortimer;"Gratuitous" : (definition) ...without cause or unjustified

Sorry, pard....I am justified and I do have cause.

Out there in my shed, among my hundred-plus moulds, is a decent assortment of Lees, likely a dozen or so. They are keeping company with Rapines, Saecos, NOEs, LBTs, NEIs, Lymans, Ideals and probably a few others I overlooked.

The Lee moulds do indeed produce usable bullets for me, but they are certainly not the equal of an NOE or LBT.

I DON"T EXPECT THEM TO BE! For what they are, for what I paid, they are alright.... but the NOE/LBT/etc etc are simply better.

That's not "gratuitous bashing", it's the voice of experience.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Take a couple minutes and look at accuracy cast bullet websites like the CBA. Noooooooooooobody uses Lee molds. Their big issue is that they seldom make a mold that casts round bullets.

There are two cars made in Italy that start with the initial "F". Each has four wheels and tires, and both will do the speed limit. One, of course, will do it in first gear, and trundle past 200 miles an hour. The other one gets 40mpg and has a back seat. There is also about $300,000 difference in the price tag. Women seem to find the one with no back seat much more attractive, ditto the man driving one.

You seem like a person who will be much happier with a Lee. Just don't expect much in the way of accuracy.

[MikeS]

There are lots of folks that love to bash Lee moulds (or anything else they make), but I'm not one of them. I prefer custom or semi-custom moulds from Accurate Molds, Mihec, or NOE, but when it comes to using a production mould Lee is the one I goto first. Lee has a few designs I like, so I get them. I still have some Lyman & SAECO moulds as well, but I probably have more Lee moulds than any other production mould.

It seems that for the last month or so most of my casting has been for BPCR boolits from Lyman & Lee moulds. The other day I grabbed one of Mihec moulds and started casting with it, and I realized that the Mihec mould was so far superior to either Lyman or Lee, and it was really a joy to cast with it!

There's nothing wrong with sticking with Lee equipment, in fact I'm sure Lee would appreciate it if most casters would do just that, but before proclaiming Lee to be high quality, etc. try to borrow a mould made by one of our resident custom and semi-custom makers, and see if you don't change your mind about Lee's quality. Again, I'm not bashing Lee products, only putting them where they should be. It's kind of like telling about your high quality Chevy Caprice to a Bentley owner!

[Boyscout]

I once heard a conversation about VERY expensive stereo equipment between two audiophiles and the capabilities of the same. I responded, "You are talking about audio ranges that the human ear can not discern; seems we are talking about quality only your dog can appreciate." I have a number of Lee's and have been very pleased with them. The bullets I make are capable of accuracy I can not achieve. I also have picked up an RCBS and Lyman mold because I had a need for something Lee did not make. I am happy with all of them and I won't lose much sleep if the Lee's wear out sooner. They got me started on something I really enjoy doing and at a price I could afford if I didn't want to continue with the hobby.

[Buckshot]

...........The production of machining is a very complex subject that involves much more then the mere making of a particular object. The machining center that does the work has a life expectancy. Ditto the tools that do the actual metal removal. Through experience it's known that a particular tool is good for X number of parts before it wears out or breaks. Tools generally get changed out in a production environment at 75% of their expected life. An endmill (and they do not buy clearance or closeout tooling) that costs $32 at an expected 75% production life may really only make 50% of the parts it could do. They know from experience it's better to swap out tooling at 75% and eat the loss then to bust a tool and lose the time, raw material, and OFF SCHEDULE tool replacement headaches.

In addition to a machine operator who stands by to load and unload the machine and who is earning a reasonable wage, you have a tool setter and a programmer who are both rather better paid then the operator. I'm rather well acquainted with Sierra Bullets when they were located in Santa Fe Springs, CA. They sold 2nds (bullets) by the pound and had a considerable number of 55 gallon drums containing them. The 2nds weren't the result of setting up a machine. These would have been pure scrap. But rather the results of actually running the machines ONCE SET UP for a period of time to produce a quantity of bullets for testing. Not testing as in shooting but testing as in testing weights, plus a considerable number of measurements taken to fractions of a tenth, in lots numbered into the tens of thousands. After having seen the barrels of 2nds, I was amazed they made any money at all selling bullets .

Lee has their moulds priced to make them a reasonable profit over and above the costs of doing business, including machine replacement, tooling costs which includes replacement (is: initial expence + setting up) scrap, projected machine maintenance and replacement. Not to mention vacation time, SS matching, disability, health insurance, electricity, etc, etc and etc ad nauseum. It's amazing to me that Lee can produce the moulds they do for what they charge for them. One benefit to them is that they've developed their block design to utilize extruded bar stock which requires minimal work to use.

.............Buckshot

[Tatume]

Lee makes molds in large batches and only markets standard models. The custom guys make molds one at a time, to order. That accounts for a large portion of the difference in price right there.

Bullets cast in Lee molds are just as good as bullets of a similar design cast in another mold. I like my LBT molds, and just purchased a new one, a 240 gr WFN GC with a nose the correct length to fit my new Freedom Arms M97. The four-cavity mold casts absolutely wonderful bullets; and although I've only had the mold two weeks, I've already shot 500 bullets and have another 500 waiting for me on the bench. That said, if a $40 Lee had been available in the right configuration (yes, $40 is what I paid for the last six-cavity mold I bought from Midway), I would have bought one.

Take care, Tom

[Case Stuffer]

I have two ,38/357 ,two 45 ,one 9MM six cavity Lee Molds. I have several one and two cavity Saeco and Lymans in 38, 45 , 44 and all of my molds cast nice Booliys and work very well. Perhaps the fact that I purchased all of mine around 40 years ago back when more Americans tool pride in their work has a little to do with it.

I started with the Saeco and Lymans for personal use and then went with the 6 cav. Lees when I went commerical with ammo and Boolits as a part time business.

[btroj]

Thank up Buckshot for an excellent example of why custom costs more.

Lee has found a way to make an acceptable product at a low cost. This allows for reasonable profit at a low retail price.
Custom makers don't buy extrusions. They don't cut corners to make a low price product. They work hard to make the best product possible, cost be darned, within reason.

Why do people buy custom moulds? Because they are nicer to work with. Easier to get to work well. And like Run said, you get the design you want, not what they decide to make.

[arkypete]

It's not that the molds are expensive, it's the dollars are almost worthless.
A few more years and we will be able to get dollars on a roll. One roll can go in the bath room and the other can hang on your belt for shopping.

Jim

[captaint]

I have some Lee molds. The ones I have kept are quite OK. The vast majority of my molds are from our custom makers, or RCBS, with some older Lymans thrown in. Mrblue mentions "you have
this CNC machine" . Yeah, you have it all right, for a (just guessing) couple hundred thousand dollars. !!!!!!!

[Wal']

Its called free enterprise the market will pay the price it can bear, if the competition can beat your price, then its..........."back to the drawing board"

[stocker]

I think you should get a quality, multi-cavity mould in your hands and see if you can identify all the machining steps that take place before a mold is completed. How many milling, drilling, tapping, insert fittings, trimming, polishing and lathe turning steps can you see beyond the cavity cutting? It's a complex little package that demands top quality machinery that runs correctly.

[Texantothecore]

The cost components for selling a mold are basically:
Material cost
Machining cost
labor cost
Administrative costs
Debt service on loans made so that they can get your product to you in less than 3 months.
Transportation cost to dealers
Margin for the dealer.
Taxes

Almost everyone starts with Lee because they are of such good value. The bullets work well and are accurate despite what a few of our cognoscenti claim.

I started reloading 7 years ago and spent a grand total of 132.00 for my first press and all the goodies to go with it, including dies for .45-70.

So it is a great deal and it could be said that Lee is responsible for the growth of the reloading industry.

Lee dominates the industry because of their value. They are also a leader in innovation and many of the cool functions on other presses and equipment are licensed to other manufcturers by Lee.

Lee's business model is that while there are a lot of great things you can do with presses and other equipment they build only what the average guy will pay for because that is their market. They have done well and will continue to do so as there is not a better deal anywhere.

As casters and reloaders develop different needs they may start looking for a more advanced outfit and definitely for more molds from the historical to the nearly absurd and Lee does not work in this area.

Most all people who start with Lee end with Lee. The group on this board is quite a bit more demanding than the average reloader so you have to take that into consideration.

There is much more to this story such as my favorite presses, the Lee Hand Press and the Lee Classic Loader, but the overall story is as I have described here.

[Doc Highwall]

Buying a custom mould is really a investment. With proper care it will last longer then you will live.

Now think about when you go shooting or hunting, it is a hobby for relaxing. The last thing I want is to be frustrated because my equipment does not work the way I want it to such as sights that do not repeat, or bullet that does not fit the throat of the gun.

Some shooters are not interested in accuracy but need a large volume of bullets like for cowboy action shooting. Then you have the other shooter who uses their gun for competition and needs all the accuracy they can get and are still looking for even smaller groups. This is where the custom mould maker comes into play, especially if they cast and shoot lead bullets. They know what is needed and how to make it.

[dakotashooter2]

Even at $100 or more a good mold will pay for itself very quickly if you do any amount of shooting. Last week I cast about 1000 boolits out of one RCBS mold. The savings in cost (cast vs commercial cast) of the bullets produced in that one casting session was equal to 1/2 of what I paid for that mold. Over the value of the mold if I compared the cost to jacketed bullets. All my moulds were bought used. The lyman and RCBS molds are still in near perfect condition. I can't say the same for the Lee molds.

[Willbird]

Well looking at the overall picture I do see something. Lee jumped in later in the game than most other "traditional" mold makers. They used a process none of them do (that I know of) and a material none of them used or use either.

The Lee mold is typically bored (maybe with a form tool?), it is made of an aluminum extrusion, it has a fairly inexpensive handle attached to every mold (for the 1-2 cavity models).

The traditional molds are made from ferrous metals, the cavities are cut with a cherry that for many years took a highly skilled person to make, and the volume probably did not warrant investing in the latest and greatest machine tools. If I had to guess I would think that the traditional makers waited out a lot of the "advancements" and kept right on doing it like they had all along.

The custom makers like Accurate Molds (I mention them because I recently bought my first custom mold from them not counting Lee group buys) use modern mfg methods (if I had to guess anyway) to produce a very fine quality "one off" product at what is a truly amazing price in your choice of materials (I chose aluminum) using domestic mfg facilities and NOT exploiting lax import regulations to land a truly amazing product quality wise in my hands in DAYS not weeks or months .

I'm glad to see the "new" Lee 2 cavity design....IMHO it is really a step up from the past design.

Bill

[alamogunr]

I've got a bunch of Lee 6 cavity GB molds. They make boolets that fill a niche for me. I'm sure that many here have more than I have. I've also got a few regular Lee catalog molds that also fill a specific need. When I want a more sophisticated or durable mold I go with a Mihec or NOE GB mold. Or a custom from Accurate or Mountain. Those are very few because I don't trust my design ability.

Having said all that, I don't hesitate to use the Lee molds when I want a boolet that they produce.

[Moonie]

Most of my molds are Lee but I do have Accurate Molds, Mihec, NOE and even an Ideal currently. I only have issue with one mold, it is a lee bator which was cut incorrectly. All of my other lee molds produce good boolits with the one noted exception. They are not what the others are, but they are a great value.