30 cal long range bullet

[barrabruce]

Since I crossing over to the dark side for this ...please be kind to me about that smokeless muck.

Since only gun I load and shoot for now is a lowly 30-30 single shot and I have to keep the pressures down a bit to keep it from spinging and upsetting the shim keeping the headspace at 1.5 Thou and shooting accurately.

I was wondering on your thoughts on a long range bullet to go out to 5-600yrds.Or more

Twist is 1:12 and I'd use smokeless pp but.

Propably in the lower to mid pressure /velocity range.

Think of a minature 45-70 or such.

Iv'e only played with flat points and they go well till I hit the brick wall of the transonic buffetting.

What should I be looking into???

High b.c.
round or pointy bullet.
One with a gas check design so the base acts like a boat tail ...ishy thing.

I know you long range fellas have sorted much of this out long ago.

Any great ideas????

No I can't get to 500 supersonic out of my gun.

I just want to pound the 500yrd gong with primative "spit balls".
In my piece of ****e and outdated thuddy thuddy.

Theory/ techinque ???

I was thinking that I may have to go transonic /subsonic at the 1/2 way point somewhere when the bullet is still tilting up to fall back down straight or some thing.

Need educating heaps

Bruce.

Thanks

[nhrifle]

Ok, I'll bite. You are playing in the territory I love, doing something inconceivable with something that has absolutely no business doing that thing. Like shooting 500 yards with a 30/30. After all, everyone KNOWS it is a 200 yard cartridge at best, right?

First thing, everything listed below is under the assumption that you will be single loading the rifle. Do not load these into a magazine.

My first thought as to a boolit would be that you are wanting something heavy to give more kinetic energy. The Lyman 311299, or better the 314299 to give a little more lead for better sealing. These have been outstanding in my 30/06 and 303 British. I use a load of 7 grains of Red Dot in the British to punch paper at 200 yards, and it travells subsonic the whole way. A little more velocity and 500 yards shouldn't be an issue.

Another potential boolit -- Midwayusa is carrying a 230 grain mould designed for the 300 Blackout. This is a long, pointy affair with tumble lube grooves and a boat tail. It was desgined for subsonic use, so the low velocities we are investigating in your quest may make this an excellent choice.

For powder, I would think one of the slower powders would be ideal. A caseful of H50BMG should give a nice gentle and steady push on the boolit instead of a quick thrust.

Thems my first ideas. Keep me posted.

[johnson1942]

i paper patch a 45/70. it get it to 1600 to 1800 ft per sec. i have several diff points for that bullet for that swageing die. ive tried them all. at my velocities the true round nose of semi flat point bullets are tack drivers and the pointed one shoot poor. the longer the point the poorer it shoots. i have one very very short pointed nose shaped nose punch and that one does ok but again the round and square shape is best. .

[Mark85304]

My first thought as to a boolit would be that you are wanting something heavy to give more kinetic energy. The Lyman 311299, or better the 314299 to give a little more lead for better sealing. These have been outstanding in my 30/06 and 303 British. I use a load of 7 grains of Red Dot in the British to punch paper at 200 yards, and it travells subsonic the whole way. A little more velocity and 500 yards shouldn't be an issue.

Another potential boolit -- Midwayusa is carrying a 230 grain mould designed for the 300 Blackout. This is a long, pointy affair with tumble lube grooves and a boat tail. It was desgined for subsonic use, so the low velocities we are investigating in your quest may make this an excellent choice.

For powder, I would think one of the slower powders would be ideal. A caseful of H50BMG should give a nice gentle and steady push on the boolit instead of a quick thrust.

A 200 grain boolit for the 30/30? Nice! I don't have either of those moulds, but it sure sounds interesting to try.

[bigted]

so just to be clear...we ARE talking about loading and shooting a 30-30 winchester singleshot rifle with a patched boolit fueled by blackpowder ...rite? if so then the point style of the boolit will make no difference like with smokless and more velocity...therefor the flatpoint or roundnose boolits are king for a couple points...first the wind buffeting effects of these long heavy boolits at the slower velocity are best...second...with blackpowder, the thrust at the begining of the ignition can and does slump the fragile long narrow nose of a spitzer type boolit.

so with a couple things understood ... as in the powder type and velocity expectations then we could talk about what missle to use to begin the experiment...or have you already started and if so please do tell what ground has been covered so far.

[GUNWHISPERER]

Well I am currently experimenting with the same said 230 gr aac blackout boolit in my 303 I was thinking of loading it with 25 gr of pyrodex rs. little dirty but should produce about 1100 fps out a 303

[GUNWHISPERER]

i have loaded 150 gr j boolits with pyrodex rs and found that you could completely fill the case and have a subsonic boolit as far as not hearing the crack of it breaking the sound barrier. didnt have a chrony to back it up but it sounded more like a 9 mm and had little to no kick

[Doc Highwall]

There is currantly a active group buy from Mihec for a 30 caliber paper patch mould for a 160 and 200 grain bullet.

[barrabruce]

There is currantly a active group buy from Mihec for a 30 caliber paper patch mould for a 160 and 200 grain bullet.

Ohh its happening then Whoo hooo!!!!

To make things a bit clearer if I seem a bit hard to follow.

Smokless powder .Paper patched bullet ..30-30.....5-600 yrds..Not real hot loads.

johnson1942


i paper patch a 45/70. it get it to 1600 to 1800 ft per sec. i have several diff points for that bullet for that swageing die. ive tried them all. at my velocities the true round nose of semi flat point bullets are tack drivers and the pointed one shoot poor. the longer the point the poorer it shoots. i have one very very short pointed nose shaped nose punch and that one does ok but again the round and square shape is best. .


Hmmm thanks johnson1942 tha'ts apon the lines of what I was thinking.

From what I have read the large long money type or 2x radius rn seems to print all the way to 1000yrds with out yawing...in the big cals.

Of corse they have the advantages over the small calibres For windriding etc.

I'm thrying to establish maybe the best design to come thougth the sound barrier buffeting.
I under stand the 301299 etc NRA bullet worked well out yonder in 308....30-06...and magnum boomer calibres but I believe they would be still above the sound barrier when they reached that far.

I would be roughly at @ 1500 for the 200 NRA bullet or 18-1900fps for the 160gnrs.

I won't get to 5-600yrds above the speed of sound in a month of sundays with my particular gun.

Yeah 350 about tops.
I can live with that and its all good.

I could try to 5-600yds with a subsonic bullet and have just maybe the come ups to get they with out kentucky windage at 2x.

My trails before hand have been that when I got to the sonic barrier my bullet just went wizzing off into the srcub somewhere.

Probably due to gyro'ing and wobbling and just hanging in there till it all got to much for them.

I suppose I need to know the nose profile that is inherently stable though that transonic buffeting.

I long pointy one seems to be the favorite of all jaxeted stuff but I have my doubts how well they actually fly through the turbulance.

Thanks for the replys every-one and keep 'em coming.

Oviously one would think after the last 50 years I could ask a question properly with out confusing every-one

Bruce

[Dan Cash]

Barrabruce, My partner and I use the Lyman 311041 loaded to 1950fps. For the last three years we have used it as a GG bullet with its gas check with good success. Using high quality vernier sights designed for long range shooting we have consistantly hit targets in the 5 to 700 yard range with 336 Marlin rifles.

I have started paper patching this winter and though it is tooooo coooollld and snowy to do extensive shooting, the paper patched 311041 bullet on the same powder charge in the same rifle exhibits great promise. If I had a match grade single shot or bolt gun in .30-30, I would anticipate some excellent groups. Will your rifle tolerate standard factory pressures?

[barrabruce]

Barrabruce, My partner and I use the Lyman 311041 loaded to 1950fps. Will your rifle tolerate standard factory pressures?

Sort of.
Its a H&R that I bought .410 with a topper 30-30 barrel on an new sb1 action. The bloke who butchered it up left me with 10 thou head space.
Which wouldn't be too bad but that makes the hinge spring with the barrell twist on firing.

I use a steel shim and "god for bid". JB weld.
I can get up there into the "normal" factory pressures and above..but the Jb breaks down after a while and I have to do it again. Plus the fact that they start to string diaganal with increasing pressures. (think it shows how the action moves during igintion).

I have gotton the 170 lee fp to pretty close to that velocity but its in the upper limit.

The book says I should be getting somthing around 2140 + fps with max of 32.5 gns of adi 2206h but that is bearly 2k's

With light gun and me being a bit of a sook its about all we can handle.

If I bring it down a few notches then we are both a lot more happy and just groups more consistantly and accurately

Probably 17-1800 fps max for the 170's.
last time I did a ladder test of loadings they when to ****e on me above @ that speed from say 1 1/2 moa to 4-5.

I must be the only person who hasn't a 311041 or the rbs one.

Barra

[Dan Cash]

I doubt that there is that much difference in performance between the Lyman and your Lee bullet. Loads/velocities in the "hot" .32-40 range ought to get you to the 5/600 yard range that you are looking for. This paper patching thing has me eager to try some longer range work with the .30-30 once the snow clears off, say about April or May.

[barrabruce]

What do you call hot 32-40 loads???
Iv'e only got data for 12-1400 fps stuff.
Thanks

[John Boy]

OK, here's my FIRST experience with maximum distance with accuracy shooting a 30-30 to dispel the Urban Legend that the caliber is a only a 200yd round:
Here's what I read in the 1949 Ideal Handbook:

The Ideal 311413 ... Squibb gas-check bullet for the Springfield and other 30-06 rifles. Perhaps the most accurate gas-check bullet yet produced. Excellent for target practice up to 600yds

Note the words ... most accurate and up to 600 yards

So, I watched eBay 'hard' for that mold and was lucky to win a bid on the 311413, then - cast a 100 - put GC's on them and reload 20 with the powder charge in the 1949 Handbook

I had the pleasure to shoot it for the 1st time Sunday, Oct 13th, 2012 ...


... after our 2 day Lever Action Silhouette Match at Ridgway.

Winchester M94, 30-30, Williams peep and a too fat diopter pin on the front sight (which I'm replacing)
Ideal 311413 - Brinell 15.3 - 170.8gr
16.5gr IMR 4759

A box of 20:
* got the 0.481" setting for the 300m pigs - downed 3 in a row
* got the 0.700" setting for the 500m rams - (an approximate 7 inch, 5 shot group on the 500m swinger per my spotter) and then downed 1 ram ... no more rounds

I'm a believer ... 500 meters = 546 yards!

[Dan Cash]

What do you call hot 32-40 loads???
Iv'e only got data for 12-1400 fps stuff.
Thanks

13-1500 fps with a 170/180 gr bullet.

[montana_charlie]

so just to be clear...we ARE talking about loading and shooting a 30-30 winchester singleshot rifle with a patched boolit fueled by blackpowder ...rite?

Nope.

[barrabruce]

boning up a bit more on the long range stuff.

Oappartently this type of bullet "Paul Jones MiniGroove bullet' with a b.c. of about 0.3 is supposed to be good travelling a long time in the transonic zone.

Attachment 59270

or this type of one.

Maybe this could be the answer to what I am seeking.
I don't know how to down size it from 45 cal to 30 cal but it looks promising.

On a lighter note I got to the range on the weekend and was hammering the 300 m gong...well dismal on two legs but any other hunting position pretty good. I finally had one shot left. Got me drop from 100 to 200 yds so I reckon its going 1950 fps if the b.c.'s .226.
Give it about 42 moa and sent it at the 500 gong. Bang...............awh.... missed.....(faint).ting !!!!!
Bugga me If I didn't connect with it
O.k. fluke but I'll take that one anyway.

Barra

[barrabruce]

Thanks for the advise.
I will cotinue to look into this and maybe work out something.
I have some suggestions now and possabilities to look into more.
Thanks for the effort
Barra

[longbow]

barrabruce:

Didn't you mention that you have a lathe or access to a lathe? If so then it is easy to make a simple cylindrical push out mould like the old Ideal moulds.

You can buy an "N" reamer for the cavity and make a form tool for the nose form/ejector. i make simple D bits for nose shapes. The "N" reamer is 0.302" and my cast boolits come out at 0.301" in ACWW so perfect for standard .30 cal. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook recommends sizing to 0.301" for standard .30 cal.

I use 1 1/2" round bar for a mould body. You can drill and ream right through then add a stop on the bottom or tap and put in a bolt drilled through to adjust the nose form up and down for variable length/weight. The sprue plate can be made from whatever you have around from about 3/16" plate on up.

The first one I made was modeled after the Lyman 301618(160gr.) and 301620(200gr) and worked well in my .308.

These moulds are simple to make and turn out a fine boolit in variable weight and with easily changeable nose forms too. Even if you had to pay someone to drill and ream (hmmmm, and maybe turn the nose form) you could probably do the rest yourself.

Just a thought.

Longbow

[barrabruce]

Well longbow I haven't got access to a lathe but if I did I would make one up.
I'd probably have a go at an adjustable split mould with grooves as well like the ol lymans with different nose designs as well.

I have got a 175 gn straight sided lathe jobbie that has a 1 cal rnd nose on it.
Machined into the end with a big flat point ejector on it given to me a few years ago.
I took the ejector out and using the drill and ginder n' file attack made a hollow point nose on the other end.
Ened up with a 1/2 round nose with a wide 1 cal hollow point.

After betting past the wrikles and getting good bullets I loaded a few.

Comes out 165 gn. the core tapers from about 0.300" to about 0.303 at the base.
I wrapped 2 different papers to just above bore contact and sized them.

It was raining and the target washed/disinergrated off the stand ...but the groups were only 1 1/2 to 2" horizontalish @ 50 yrds.
Some of the paper confetti I picked up show wrinkling but cutting.
I don't know which paper but I must have had patch slip at least on one of them.

A softdink plastic bottle at 50 yrds showed a nice vapour water spray and left one segment of the hollow nose in the 600ml bottle.
Be devestating to a roo or a goat I would think.

I gave up on the mold hoping after more casting and wrapping experiance It'd work out better.
Be o.k. for 100 yrds.

I'd have to get past the buncing of patch catch snydrome.smaller nose
I may make a bigger hollow point ejector for it and make a semi mankiller type projo..but it takes be like 4-5 hrs for a 1/2 and hr job on a lathe.

A proper length smooth core with a jump down nose would seem to achor the patch better than the abrupt end I have at the moment.

I like the design of the mould you make thou and will make one when I can get a lathe or borrow one for a day or two.

Hell I could make meself up all sorts of junk..n'..gadgets.

Cheers
Bruce