Marlin 1895 cowboy 26 inch barrel KA BOOM with 405 cast gc boolit, loading 5744

[Two401Pm]

Just curious to see if anyone else has had a problem with this powder?? I have been loading and casting for a good many years and have never had a problem.. Until I used this powder.. XMP 5744 28 grains , 405 gas check cast bullett and and book overall length. winchester primer and new winchester brass. I had been shooting this combo for quite some time in a pedersoli sharps with no problem. I had fired several rounds hitting the steel platee target at 200 yds.. loaded the next round squeezed the trigger and Ka boom pieces flew every where, blowing some of the forestock into my arm.. Not Looking to create a problem.. Because I love this sport and I will not sue anyone.. Things happen.. I am just wondering why??? No reason I can find.. I have heard if you shoot long enough and reload long enogh sooner or later something like this is going to occur ,and leave you scratching yer head as to why..

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I am another long time 5744 shooter. Was out yesterday with some 10 rounds in my 1873. This sounds perplexing. Most accurate smokeless powder I have found in my 50-95 repro.
Were yo able to secure the remains of the brass, boolit and rifle parts ? Maybe there is a clue.
Mike in ILL

[Two401Pm]

Yep have all the pieces.. I have not contacted Marlin yet.. Am sure if I send in pieces it will never be returned.. I am a hunter safety instructor and it is a good training tool..It split the reciever right down the middle and blew the right side 90 degrees to the right, split the breech end of the barrell approx 6 inches following the center of the flats, sights fell off, magazine tube flattened, The bolt did not unlock.. Looks to be an explosion rather then a controlled burn in the cartridge..Was not any noticable increase in recoil.. this load shot well and was a full grain under listed max for a trap door springfield rifle.. and a little under starting load for the 1895 Lever gun..I have no idea what took place other then I have a pile of scrap...I am positive there was no screw up in the loading, by wrong pwd,wrong primer, or not having the case double charged, or a barrel obstruction..

[Two401Pm]

If I were computer savy I could post pictures..

[Two401Pm]

Have never heard of a gas check comming off in the barrel after firing..But am left grasping at straws..as to what took place still have some of the shells still loaded so can send some to pwd company and to Marlin.. if need be.. But all manuals state if shooting reloads warranty is void.. Not that I care just do not want a repeat of this happening again..

[Two401Pm]

Just read an article in the Varmit hunter magazine , another person had a catastrophic failure while shooting XMP 5744 at the Quigley shoot in Montana..it was a 40-65 B
allard rifle shooting 23 grains of 5744 with a 400 grain cast bullet..

[rbertalotto]

I believe that Ballard rifle was an iron frame. It should never been exposed to smokeless powder.

[btroj]

Most obvious answer is a double charge.

[Just Duke]

If I were computer savy I could post pictures..

I'm really glad your OK.
I also would be the last one to jump in and assume the fault was to be placed on the person reloading.
As a control may I ask how long you have been reloading?
Can you email me the pics? I would be more than happy to host and post them.

[Just Duke]

The wife and I did hours of searching and reading and found the a common component in the equation was a large meplat bullet that was touching the rifling. Some posters responses and various articles said this causes pressures to soar. I cannot confirm that this is correct but we did use better discretion in bullet selection.

[fouronesix]

That charge and bullet should produce about 15K CUP. Anyone with QL can plug in the #s to verify my interpolation if it's way off. 5744 and similar powders are not known to misbehave. No, a gas check in the bore would do little if anything except maybe putting a little ironed crease in the bore surface where the bullet ran over it. Just not enough mass in a gas check to do what was done. The only type of bore obstruction that might run pressures up high enough to blow out the chamber would be a bullet stuck just in front of the chamber- but don't know if even that would blow out the chamber with that load. A bullet stuck any farther up the barrel would likely just bulge the barrel or blow it out at the point of the obstruction. Agree with others, most likely an over charge or double charge. A double charge (56 gr) of 5744 will fit into a 45-70 and be a little below the mouth and would probably be a medium compressed load. But, no one will ever know with 100% certainty. All the evidence is gone.

[Just Duke]

PM sent for email addy.

[KirkD]

I use 5744 in most of my cartridges and use that powder more than any other. It has a lower extreme spread over my chronograph than any other powder I use, so it is the last powder that I would expect to cause a problem like this. If it was a bore obstruction, then the blow up would occur further down the barrel at the obstruction. I know you are sure it wasn't a double charge, but I will say that a double charge is pretty much the only thing that would cause a blow up in the chamber area. Another remote possibility is a cracked chamber, but that probability is awfully small.

[btroj]

Positiveit wasn't a loadin error or a barrel obstruction? Then what was it? 5744 has been used so much with low end loads that I seriously doubt it was a problem related to SEE.
Something caused a massive increase in pressure. Barrel obstructions and loading errors are the most common.
How can you be positive it wasn't a double charge? It happens to even the most experienced loaders. I know someone it happened to a few years ago. Never would have expected he would have it happen but it did.

[smokeywolf]

Would love to see pic of the chamber/barrel. We have enough Machinists/Metallurgists on the forum that an anomaly in the barrel forging or machining of the chamber might be discernible.

smokeywolf

[nhrifle]

Maybe I missed something reading through this thread. Is this a fairly new rifle or one from way back in the day? I'm sorry this happened to you, but definitely glad you are ok. I've been around a couple of kabooms and I don't ever want to see another one. Just a downright scary situation. The load combination looks good to me, as I have used exactly that same load in my rifles with no problem. About the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me is the above post, possible double charge. It's easy enough to do and I've done it myself even tho I try to be a careful as I can in every step.

[Kansas Ed]

That's a pretty scary situation, and I'm glad you suffered no more than you did.

I once had a friend who brought me two 45-70 brass empties (very very experienced reloader and suberb gunsmith) who had fired 1 shot of RL7 with a 405gr bullet in an 1895 Marlin (1980's version). The end of the bras was petaled like a flower...not cracked but extremely stretched. Knowing that something was amiss, he shot the next round in his Ruger #1 and the case separated...not at the base but about 1" from the end. Knowing that I used RL7 for 45-70 he wanted to double check his powder and loads with a known good can of powder and on different equipment. At that point we disassembled several rounds from his box of reloads to verify powder, and weight, and bullet weight. Everything checked out. Powder appeared to be RL7, and weights were well within cautious norms. The remainder of the rounds were sent to Hercules for disassembly and testing. Those rounds pressure tested in the neighborhood of 120,000 psi!! Hercules report was that there was an inadvertent mixing of a pistol powder in those rounds. Fault was never determined as there was an argument from that point on as to whether the can was actually new, but the pistol powder that Hercules claimed was mixed in was not a powder that he kept on the shelf, and he claimed he opened the can new just prior to charging the cases...but Hercules did recall the whole case of powder from that retailer just to be safe.

My points are:
1) It took a lot of pressure to destroy that rifle if the rifle was in great shape.
2) Is there any possibility that there was a mix of powder which could have caused this?

Just out of curiosity and hearing reports of people loading 2 bullets into the same case in some large handgun cartridges with progressive presses...I ran the results through QL of a double charged bullet. A double bullet would put the pressures at 101,000 PSI estimated.

A double charge of that powder would have shown pressures exceeding 126,000 psi estimated.

Ed

[Poppaclutch]

Glad you are ok. Sorry you wrecked your fine rifle.

I use a charging block and always visually check my loads with a small flash light.

[smokeywolf]

Kansas Ed, that was a very interesting, thought provoking post. I always give my powders a visual check and sniff for any questionable or off odors. I think I'll be giving my powders a more thorough look from now on.
I also don't use a progressive setup, weigh 90+% of my charges, and do a final weighing of all completed cartridges. On top of that I will sometimes sideline a cartridge based purely on a feeling or hunch. Those sidelined cartridges get disassembled.
My wife says it's obvious where our son's obsessive compulsive behavior comes from.

two401Pm, I hope you can eventually solve this mystery. It's a sad thing to lose a nice gun. To some of us they're like a member of the family. Most importantly, I'm very glad your injuries were just superficial.

Any chance yet on some pics of the rifle?

smokeywolf

[John Taylor]

There has been things said in the past about loads that don't fill the case and having lots of room left over causing high pressure. I have not heard a good explanation but it seems to happen rarely. Had a friend who lost the top strap and top of cylinder on a 45 Colt with "cowboy" loads. Even a double charge of the powder he was using would have been in the safe zone. He told me he hit the target with that shot but the gun recoil felt different. He didn't know the gun blew up till he tried to cock the hammer for the next shot. Thing go fast in a timed event. Have heard this called "detonation".