for modern cartridges, can I just fill the case with black?

[Whiterabbit]

For modern cartridges in a bolt action or single action revolver, each designed and capable of sustaining 65ksi of pressure as a saami limit, is there any way to get into trouble using FFF black powder? If I wanted to fill the case to the top, shake, fill again, shake, and seat the bullet .1" deep, I can do that without issue? no safety concern with pressure?

Again, the rules I'd be following:

65ksi cartridges
no powder compression
FFF
bolt action and SA revolver only

Are there any red flags for you guys? should I be good to go?

[Mooseman]

You need to slightly compress the powder with the bullet seated on it in any BPCR...You didnt say what Caliber /case you would be loading , so More info is needed.

[Chicken Thief]

It's messy and slow!

Still want to try?

Using J-words it's going to be wery slow.
Using boolits it's going to be messy and you need boolits that will hold enough proper BP lube or else the rifle will foul up fast.

[Whiterabbit]

Actually Rich, more info isn't needed. If the safety DOES depend on the caliber and case or type of firearm or size of black powder kernel, then my question is answered. The question was, with the listed criteria fixed, safety guaranteed. You bring up caliber and case which I didn't specify. If changing those (within my fixed criteria) changes the confidence of safety, then by definition safety is not guaranteed. There are additional rules to learn. That in and of itself completely answers the question.

Assuming other forum members agree with you. That the four criteria above that I fixed is not sufficient to make a determination of safety.

[Don McDowell]

You may run into some really serious fouling problems and accuracy might be nonexistant, except for 1 shot groups.
I can tell you that the 375 ouchnounch really puts some zip on a 255 gr cast bullet with the 92 grs of 3f it holds.....

[Seth Hawkins]

You can't get too much BP in a brass cartridge to hurt a modern firearm made for smokeless powder - provided the gun is in proper working order / undamaged. Fill the case and mash a bullet down on top of it. Doesn't matter what caliber. Doesn't matter which powder. Load up and shoot. One caveat - stay far away from Pyrodex and any of it's brethren. They aren't BP and you CAN load too much of it. It is closer in behavior to smokeless than BP.

Your next set of questions will be about controlling fouling, but we'll deal with those once you ask them.

[Whiterabbit]

American Pioneer count as like-pyrodex? REALLY hard to find goex here.

[John Boy]

Fill the case and mash a bullet down on top of it.

If reloading bottle neck cases with black, only fill the case to half way up the neck

['74 sharps]

American Pioneer count as like-pyrodex? REALLY hard to find goex here.

That's a substitute. Real bp is a click away with either PowderInc or Graf Shooters Supply.

[Larry Gibson]

American Pioneer count as like-pyrodex? REALLY hard to find goex here.

I've done extensive testing of American Pioneer BP substitute powder in most all straight walled handgund cartridges and in the 45-70 with 400 gr cast bullets. Yes you can fill the case full and seat the bullet. Best to fill the case to 1/2 the seating depth of the bullet for medium compression though. As mentioned make sure you use a quality BP lube or fouling will destroy accuracy and jam up the gun (revolvers) in a few shots. With a properly BP lubed softer cast bullet (20-1 or softer preferably) American Pioneer is an excellent BP substitute in these cartridges; actually better than most oany other BP substitute and as good as real BP.

I've done no testing in modern bottle necked cartridges.

Larry Gibson

[Seth Hawkins]

American Pioneer count as like-pyrodex? REALLY hard to find goex here.

No. APP loads like real BP. Treat it the same. It may or may not like a lot of compression, can't remember which. Either way it won't hurt you.

As for lube with APP (or Goex Pinnacle, which is re-labeled APP) you can shoot it without any lube at all on the bullet with pistol calibers in guns such as those typically used in CAS. I have been using it for a number of years with bullets lubed for smokeless, some lubed for BP, and others with no lube at all. It made no difference to the accuracy - an indication of barrel fouling, again with CAS guns shot at CAS distances - or to the fouling of the action. My guns ran just fine all day - rifle and revolvers. The label on the powder (Pinnacle) touted that no lube was required, that the powder created it's own lube, so I decided to test the claim. I shot match after match with bullets that had no lube on them and the barrel never fouled out nor did the action. Now, when I use APP/Pinnacle, I save myself time and money and use un-lubed bullets.

As for true bottleneck rifle cartridges, I have no experience with APP/Pinnacle or other subs. I use real BP - Goex FFg to be exact - in my .44-77. It loves that powder and paper patched 407 grain bullets. Don't confuse the .44-40 or .38-40 with rifle cartridges. They are loaded like pistol cartridges.

[bigted]

i guess ill be harolded as a lunetick by some but am willing to do so for your pleassure...stuff those cases full of blackpowder and be assured that in no way will you ever accomplish even half of what you describe as a PSI of 65,000 pounds pressure. any firearm that is ok'd for these kinda pressures will never balk saftey wise to a full case of bp...period!!!

that sir is what is my calling to this origanal powder...as long as no air gap between the powder and projectile is undertaken ...then providing that the firearm is on the level of a sound mechanically safe gun that is ok'd for those kinda pressures ...then i would and do load to my hearts content with no wonder if the dang thing will blow up in any fassion...

now as to the fouling control? ... well that be another aminal completely and to be surely addressed in a thread of its own...or to be expanded at your request after the huge smile goes away from yer face after yankin the trigger on this elixer of the origanal powder in any firm and sound firearm...

now that feeling of dread from using gods own powder being softened to a dull glow...go forth and spark another convict into the dreaded and evil as well as the non-returned from ... life changing experience that surely follows the first trigger yank on a blackpowder loaded cartridge gun.......yippi...wish i could be there to see the glee on yer mug after the first shot !!! have fun !!!

[NickSS]

When I ifrst got started reloading ammo I was very familiar with Black Powder having loaded and shot ML rifles for several years. I knew nothing of smokeless powder and was a bit Leary of it so the first ammo I loaded was for 303 British and 30-06. I filled the cases up to the brim and pushed a Jacketed bullet down on top. The all went bang very successfully with a big boom and lots of smoke. I fired over 300 rounds the first time I tried it (200 303s and 100 or so 30-06s). Accuracy was as good as surplus ammo I had been shooting and I had no problems with fouling buildup. The Jacketed bullets pushed to fouling out the bore with each shot. The barrels cleaned up quick and easy with water and liquid soap. Since then I have loaded Jacketed bullets in other modern rifles and pistols with similar results. With cast bullets being not as hard you need good lube and lots of it or you foul out and loose accuracy.