I understand. the unusual has it's appeal. (I tend to go for the "offbeat" myself). Why do you think that I like the .32 caliber revolvers and self-loaders? I have a driving penchant for accuracy. The .32 caliber "family" has it in spades! If I can dump 8 rounds of hot .32 ball ammunition in someone's face or chest in short order, I'll take that over a poorly placed .45 ACP in less than a heartbeat!Originally Posted by PB234
Scott
Not knowing much about 32s this is a good opportunity to ask which do you favor the most? The 32 HSC and PPK look interesting to me. 1935 Beretta and Browning 1922 also are interesting. I like the older stuff with a sense of history in it.
Lot to be said for a controllable cartridge that is easy to shoot accurately.
Just picking your brain here for suggestions for 32s. Figure you now them and I sure do not so here is my opportunity to learn the easy way.
There is a significant number of 32 caliber handgun addicts here at Cast Boolits--just hide and watch, we'll all be coming out of the woodwork in short order.
Scott touched on a subject tangentially that has been a question I've pursued with some vigor as both a hobbyist and as an expert witness/investigator in lethal force scenarios and ballistics venues. That question or inquiry series would be "What changed over the past 125 years of cartridge arms in self-defense roles that caused the near-demise of the less powerful/smaller caliber sidearms in those venues?"
Medical factors--most gunshot wounds are dirty, germy, infectious messes. This was common knowledge after our national experience in the War Between The States. The dissuading effect of likely infection and slow, painful recovery or agonizing death from a pending gunshot injury cannot be over-emphasized, and such dissuasion figured highly in an assailant's threat assessment well into the early decades of the 20th Century. So a diminutive top-break 32 caliber revolver held the potential in 1900 of being just as lethal as any large-caliber sidearm or rifle--and with a more lingering, miserable journey into that good good night, as well.
The modern scenario medically is radically different. If the ballistic trauma itself has not caused organic destruction inconsistent with maintenence of life, the array of antibiotics and pain management agents provide a pretty good oppurtunity for a gunshot victim to survive the incident. This too has become common knowledge, especially noted by the hood rats and thug culturists that make up our criminal element. This variable is part of their mindset, and is aggravated by use of mind-altering substances. In short, a lawful defender (citizen or LEO) is potentially more likely to be obliged to project lethal force in current times than in the past--simply because gunshot wounds have been made more survivable medically.
Legal factors--125 years ago, if a citizen was obliged to fire upon an assailant for some reason, it was almost assumed from the outset that said citizen likely had a good reason for doing so. Society seemed aware that vicious people were abroad, and that such persons were prone to prey upon others for various and sundry illicit motives.
While in reality that situation remains unchanged, the legal landscape has altered radically. A LEO or citizen who projects lethal force will be obliged to justify those actions, and that justification will be raked and sorted with a very fine-toothed comb. Regardless how well-justified the defensive action may have been, the self-defender will likely face lawsuits, threats. and negative publicity ad nauseum.
Another change in the legal landscape that has REALLY altered the playing field.......125 years ago, it was considered good public policy to fire upon suspected fleeing felons irrespective of their status as being armed. Society felt it was intrinsically good to capture suspected felons by any means possible, in the interest of preserving public order. In such a situation, lower-powered sidearm calibers served well, given the likelihood of resulting infection as above--the bullet as "marking pellet" assured that the perp would either seek medical assistance and thereby be identified, or expire on his own and relieve society of the need and costs of trying him. A very different world, indeed--where value judgements favoring the law-abiding were the order of the day.
A profound shift occurred during the 1960s, and society's view (or at least the legal sub-culture's view) changed on this subject. Firing upon fleeing suspected felons became frowned upon, esp. upon unarmed recipients. By the time I entered LE in late 1977, the rules of engagement forbid firing upon fleeing unarmed felons outright, and fleeing armed felons were a definite gray area. I played by the rules, since I liked having the job.
But the unintended consequences of such strictures remain with us--felons are NOT obliged to flee, esp. from citizens, and the net effect has been to make confrontations occur at MUCH closer quarters and "on the offensive" with deadly force often deployed. This alone has done more to cause the decline of small, less-powerful sideiron for CCW. I carry ALL THE TIME. I carry a 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP. The 32s and the 38 S&W are recreational devices. If those lighter calibers were to be pressed into defensive work, all shots would be placed in the Brain Housing Group via eye sockets. Yes, I practice such moves. Twice monthly.
Last edited by 9.3X62AL; 05-21-2012 at 07:00 PM.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
The Mozambique drill works well in this respect.
Scott
And provides for a more interesting autopsy, as well.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
I like YOU! Intelligence, education, experience and wisdom. What's not to like?!There is a significant number of 32 caliber handgun addicts here at Cast Boolits--just hide and watch, we'll all be coming out of the woodwork in short order.
Scott touched on a subject tangentially that has been a question I've pursued with some vigor as both a hobbyist and as an expert witness/investigator in lethal force scenarios and ballistics venues. That question or inquiry series would be "What changed over the past 125 years of cartridge arms in self-defense roles that caused the near-demise of the less powerful/smaller caliber sidearms in those venues?"
Medical factors--most gunshot wounds are dirty, germy, infectious messes. This was common knowledge after our national experience in the War Between The States. The dissuading effect of likely infection and slow, painful recovery or agonizing death from a pending gunshot injury cannot be over-emphasized, and such dissuasion figured highly in an assailant's threat assessment well into the early decades of the 20th Century. So a diminutive top-break 32 caliber revolver held the potential in 1900 of being just as lethal as any large-caliber sidearm or rifle--and with a more lingering, miserable journey into that good good night, as well.
The modern scenario medically is radically different. If the ballistic trauma itself has not caused organic destruction inconsistent with maintenence of life, the array of antibiotics and pain management agents provide a pretty good oppurtunity for a gunshot victim to survive the incident. This too has become common knowledge, especially noted by the hood rats and thug culturists that make up our criminal element. This variable is part of their mindset, and is aggravated by use of mind-altering substances. In short, a lawful defender (citizen or LEO) is potentially more likely to be obliged to project lethal force in current times than in the past--simply because gunshot wounds have been made more survivable medically.
Legal factors--125 years ago, if a citizen was obliged to fire upon an assailant for some reason, it was almost assumed from the outset that said citizen likely had a good reason for doing so. Society seemed aware that vicious people were abroad, and that such persons were prone to prey upon others for various and sundry illicit motives.
While in reality that situation remains unchanged, the legal landscape has altered radically. A LEO or citizen who projects lethal force will be obliged to justify those actions, and that justification will be raked and sorted with a very fine-toothed comb. Regardless how well-justified the defensive action may have been, the self-defender will likely face lawsuits, threats. and negative publicity ad nauseum.
Another change in the legal landscape that has REALLY altered the playing field.......125 years ago, it was considered good public policy to fire upon suspected fleeing felons irrespective of their status as being armed. Society felt it was intrinsically good to capture suspected felons by any means possible, in the interest of preserving public order. In such a situation, lower-powered sidearm calibers served well, given the likelihood of resulting infection as above--the bullet as "marking pellet" assured that the perp would either seek medical assistance and thereby be identified, or expire on his own and relieve society of the need and costs of trying him. A very different world, indeed--where value judgements favoring the law-abiding were the order of the day.
A profound shift occurred during the 1960s, and society's view (or at least the legal sub-culture's view) changed on this subject. Firing upon fleeing suspected felons became frowned upon, esp. upon unarmed recipients. By the time I entered LE in late 1977, the rules of engagement forbid firing upon fleeing unarmed felons outright, and fleeing armed felons were a definite gray area. I played by the rules, since I liked having the job.
But the unintended consequences of such strictures remain with us--felons are NOT obliged to flee, esp. from citizens, and the net effect has been to make confrontations occur at MUCH closer quarters and "on the offensive" with deadly force often deployed. This alone has done more to cause the decline of small, less-powerful sideiron for CCW. I carry ALL THE TIME. I carry a 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP. The 32s and the 38 S&W are recreational devices. If those lighter calibers were to be pressed into defensive work, all shots would be placed in the Brain Housing Group via eye sockets. Yes, I practice such moves. Twice monthly.
Scott
9.3,
I've seen some of your thoughts on these matters before, but really enjoyed your exposition in post #43!
A related topic is the trend towards requiring LEO's to go hand-to-hand with thugs, employing a seemingly ever more complicated escalation of force in a manner that must bear scrutiny on the omnipresent cell phone video. I'm 53, and had a Baton Rouge PD officer and a LA State Trooper as two of our neighbors when I was a teenager. The former was the old-school burly cop who could handle most folks with brute force alone--no idea if he had any special training or any equipment besides his revolver and motorcycle. The state patrolman kindly showed me his Colt Trooper .357 one evening; I still remember & use the technique he taught me to hand over an unloaded revolver to someone. I also remember the awe in which I held that Colt and its .357 caliber--the ne plus ultra of sidearms, it seemed to me.
In any event, my perception at that time was that anyone tangling with a cop would suffer one helluva beatdown with fists and/or nightsticks, or simply get shot for his trouble. Don't know if that was literally true, but my perception was widely shared. What's more, we all felt it made perfect sense and was fully justified--we had no notion that the criminal deserved kid glove treatment, nor that a cop was obligated to risk his life so unnecessarily as now seems to be the case. The first time he gets licked, his gun may be taken and turned on him, yet if the assailant is losing & takes off, he does it fairly secure in the knowledge that the cop can't shoot him. (A lot like the rules of engagement we hold our soldiers to in combat operations.)
So, in the process of making all of this more "humane," we've now habituated criminals to expect non-deadly force in the first place, and likewise to expect to be saved by heroic measures and the finest medical technology if they do get shot! So instead of being able to use what you describe as the old "marking" rounds such as 32 and 38 S&W, cops & civilians alike are liable to be carrying firepower undreamed of when I was a young 'un. Again, the rule of unintended consequences distorts the efforts of the do-gooders and increases the danger to everybody (sorry if that sounds bitter).
Well, I guess the 135 bullets I cast this evening from an old Ideal hand-tool 146g LRN mold will be limited to practice ammo for my girls in their 38 S&W's, or perhaps as fodder for speed loaders/-strips to ease reloading after their WC carry ammo is expended on a monumentally bad day. They can't reload very quickly, but I emphasize to them that they've got to reload after a SD incident, as they'll have lost track of rds expended and CANNOT count on the PD to arrive before the BG's possibly vengeful friends and family.
I also cast perhaps 400-500 of the 200g GB clone of the NEI 169A bullet. Hope it'll tumble at 600-ish and nearly duplicate the CIS Mk 2Z 178g ball ammo I have inbound next week. A previous test with that ammo impressed me greatly as a SD round, even though it's not a barrier penetrator. As I reviewed my records of commercial 38 S&W and 38 SPL 200g loads at 600-ish, I see I got some ferocious tumbling in water penetration tests. The LRN's I loaded up into the 700's curved thru water jugs, but didn't tumble. 200g SWC and flat-noses of several types plowed a straight line, nose first in every case.
Perhaps I'll get lucky and get the results the British Army apparently got from the 200g blunt nose, once that GB mold arrives later this year: light recoil, report & blast, violent tumbling, smashing effect on bone, and deep penetration. May be feasible for my girls to handle, unlike the 200 SWC's at 700+ in 38 SPL.
Scott--thanks for the kind words, sir.
LA Man, I think the uptick in cartridge power was a direct response to assailants "taking the offensive" far more frequently, in the absence of the old La Ley De Fuga (The Law Of Flight)--Si su fuga, mi fuego(If you flee, I fire). That Spanish may not be perfect, but is close. In Mexico, those rules of engagement still largely hold sway. If an attacker is in your face and presenting lethal force, he needs his switch turned off RIGHT BLEEPIN' NOW--so the bigger/heavier/faster bullet gets the call.
I'm sure that humane motives and a genuine desire to save human life played some role in the softening of the rules of engagement as stated previously. But being the realist and cynic that I am, I'm equally certain that the legal establishment had as much or more to do with having those rules modified--in order to fatten and deepen their revenue streams. Dead criminals don't directly prompt legal fees, so the obvious response is to create an environment that preserves their lives--or at least sanctions via litigation the taking of criminal life, irrespective of the justification for said life-taking. The lawyers want their piece--and, by God, they mean to get it.
So the object of the game becomes one of being there to defend one's self in court, after defending one's self on the street. What a country.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
LousianaMan writes, "Again, the rule of unintended consequences distorts the efforts of the do-gooders and increases the danger to everybody (sorry if that sounds bitter)."
That isn't bitterness, it's righteous indignation.
Scott
True that.
The 38 S&W (and the 32 handguns, for that matter) become very efficient "Kit Guns", with far more game- and varmint-harvesting ability than the 22 LR versions once made by S&W. Their cast boolits--when run at docile velocities--anchor small and medium critters capably, and without the meat-shredding effects of the Magnums. I have come to greatly enjoy the little Colt PP as a field companion.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
While the .22 LR is quite economical for small game, it is advisable to use a revolver/self-loader with a barrel of six inches in length (or longer) to ensure sufficient energy is generated to harvest game cleanly. Our fathers and grandfathers knew this. Even with the modern development of high-velocity hollow point ammunition, the .22 long rifle must be provided sufficient "runway" to be effective when it comes to humanely dispatching small game.
The small-bore .32 S&W & .32 S&W Long excel in this arena. Withe the proper loads, even the larger canine varmints can be dealt with quite readily. All that is required is an accurate piece, and bit of skill on the shooter's part.
Scott
If you're interested in some low-recoil, accurate .38 S&W rounds, I've had great luck with the Rem. 148 HBWC designed for .38 Spl wadcutter rounds. They are oversized at about 0.360" and work well in the .38 S&W. I just seat them about halfway down and crimp on one of the driving bands. I use between 2.0 to 3.5 grains of Bullseye depending on the gun.
I tried the Hornady swaged HBWCs in the Webley-Enfield and the S&W M&P. They shot pretty well, but ran lower than the sights held. I haven't tried those boolits in the little Colt.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
I've just loaded a bunch of Lee .358-148-WC in front of TiteGroup, and hope it will be low 700's and a good match for the Colt & S&W sights. Mine run about .358-.360, so shoot well in the Smiths (.359 grooves) and hopefully in the tighter Colt, too.
Expect to keep the Enfield, Victory, and Indian contract Rugers in some combination of Mk 2Z service ammo and 200 LRN at low 600's. Since the LSWC 200's won't tumble anyway, will pump some up to about 700 and see how they shoot & feel. Also want to see how 158's at 750-800 do in the Victory; I can "smush" the nose with Buckshot's blind die, and get a sharp-edged meplat that looks wicked.
The flatter the meplat (at any speed) the better.
Scott
Mexico has not had capital punishment for a very long time. "La Ley de Fuga" is often Mexico's pragmatic substitute for the lack of such a law. Many miscretants have been taken to a rural area, cut loose and told to run for their lives. They seldom make it very far.
Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.
That works for me. The b@$tards die in a hail of gunfire; the world keeps on turning.
Scott
Some years ago I chronographed some .38 S&W loads in two of my revolvers:
S&W Victory 5" barrel - 158 gr. SWC 2.2 gr. Bullseye 588 fps
200 gr. LRN 2.2 B/E 530 fps
148 gr. HBWC 2.2 B/E 735 fps
New Zealand Military 651 fps
125 gr. LTFP 2.2 B/E (?) 757 fps
Swedish Nagant 158 gr. SWC 2.2 B/E 460 fps (large cylinder gap)
Lyman Manual #44 has 141gr, 150gr, and 158gr loads that are the peppiest .38 S&W I have seen...They recommend for solid frames only...
Use with caution...
About 20 years ago, I had a FFL order from Hunter's Lodge a 38 Colt Police positive special. What I got was a Hong Kong 38 S&W chambered post 1966 police positive special. I was kind of mad but at $100 I thought I would play with it for awhile. Factory ammo was pleasent to shoot out if it. But I wanted more and loaded the maximum load I could find in any manual, which was pushing towards 900 FPS rated velocity with a 158 bullet, this was most likely not SAMMI specs.. I even loaded store bought cast bullet seated out to make a longer cartridge. The gun was tight and actually shot pretty good but I sold it for what I had in it because I wanted nothing to do with the caliber. Knowing what I know today about short cases and higher pressure, I probably would not do it again but the gun was tight before and after 100 rounds with nothing notable happening.
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| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
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