Dillon, it's time to update

[W.R.Buchanan]

I wil add my .02 here as I feel as a machine designer that I have something valuable to add to this conversation.

This comes down to if it ain't broke you don't fix it.

If Dillon's sales had fallen off over the last year or so I think they might be looking at some changes, however they haven't, so don't hold your breath.

Second they have machines that are field proven to function correctly with a myriad of ********* pulling on the handle. That's a hard one to get past. They are nearly idiot proof.

From a business standpoint you never make a change to a product that is selling well unless you find in house or thru feedback that you have a problem. Then you fix it with the simplest most cost effective way you can and move on. Also you never significantly change a product unless you are being killed by the competition. And then you never do a quantum leap that leaves all the previous machines wihtout a source of parts. Better to evolve the machine and only change a few things that can be retrofitted to existing machines. There should be no planned obsolesence in reloading tools.

Did you know that the big 3 American auto makers (ford chevy dodge) all have 1/2 ton diesel trucks ready for production with 4cyl diesels. Have you seen one? I haven't, and I was told this by all three factories at SEMA 6 years ago! Some are even being built in other countries. Ford F150's with 4 cyl Cummins motors. Never see them here, but they make em in Brazil.

They are waiting until one or another takes the step to sell here and then the other 2 will respond. In other words there is no reason to bring the product out because what they already have is selling well.

This is also why you won't see a Ruger Gunsite Carbine in .223 or anyother caliber than .308. They are selling all they can make in .308,,,, Why change?

The Dillon machines, and I have most experience with SDB's are some of the best designed machines of any kind I have seen in my 35 years of being in the business of designing machines. They function very smoothly, and if you can wear one out you can rebuild it for either free or $20. All the wearing parts are delrin and are cheap.

All machines have idiocyncracies, but the Dillons have the least that I have seen.

Another confirmation is the number of satisfied customers you have for your product. I think Dillon probably has the edge here.

However at the end of the day it all comes down to what you personally like. This really could become a a Ford, Dodge, Chevy debate.

I would have to say that what the OP is actually talking about is designing his own machine with all the features on it that he thinks he wants. I think he should have at it.

I am not talking thru my **** here either. I wanted very specific things in my quest for the perfect Jeep.

I have gone so far as to actually build that Jeep from scratch, simply because I could not find a vehicle that had everything I wanted in that vehicle. I had to start from scratch and build what I want, the Way I want it.

I am sure of one thing. In the end I will get exactly what I thought I wanted..

That may or may not end up being exactly what I actually need.

As far as Dillon 'upgrades' Don't hold your breath. What they have works pretty well. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Randy

[Moondawg]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I like my early 1990s 550B just fine the way it is. The only improvement I would make would be to make it a little easier to lube the pivot pins for the ram and handle. But than I am not sure that is necessary because after well over a 100,000 rounds loaded, everything is still tight, no excess slop.

[LUBEDUDE]

Sounds like good common business sense to me.

Thanks for spelling it out so succinctly Randy.

[quasi]

The Porsche 911 remained the same for decades because no one made a better "mouse trap". Dillons are the same for that reason and cost of parts that are replaced for free forever. The only machine they make that has has had major changes is the 1050, only because it is the only one that has only a 1 year warranty.

How about the 450-550-550b?

free forever? Dillon could go bankrupt tomorrow and get taken over by some Bankers who sell the name to a factory in China. Or Remingtons parent corporation could buy out Dillon and turn it into another Marlin.

[r1kk1]

I understand what your saying quasi but the reloading aspect is just one of his many business ventures. The dude is loaded. Dillonaero is another company with private and military contracts, etc. I would hate to guess what his net worth is.

Incredibly diverse companies he has built over the years.

Take care

r1kk1

[W.R.Buchanan]

Those neato Dillon Miniguns? note the word Dillon? same guys that make the blue tools.

I would be willing to bet that a Dillon Minigun is $50K at least, and probably more. There are literally thousands of them in use.

I am not easily impressed when it comes to machines and machine design. I designed the Omniturn CNC lathe which is one of the best selling small Automated Turning Machines ever made, so I have a somewhat narrow view of these things.

Dillon's engineering has always impressed me profoundly. Their use of permanent mould castings for machines like the SDB, is so far above the competition it is silly. The fact that those machines can be worn out and completely rebuilt for $20 or free, is a true testiment to the genius that goes into designing and building a machine that will stand the test of time. Also I would bet that the net profit on one of those machines is way above 60-70%. That speaks volumes about the actual overall design.

There is plenty of good reloading machines on the market and everyone has it's good and bad points, I find the Dillon stuff tends to have less of the bad points than the majority of others and that is why I tend to promote them as much as I do. Simply put they sell more Progressive(or semi progressive) machines than all others combined with the exception of Lee. They didn't get that way by producing a poor product.

When you can appreciate the subtile nuances of a given design then you can appreciate what is actually setting that machine apart from others.

This is why Dillon is so special.

Randy

[quasi]

Well the Dillon 1050 is the best of their line, it is really an expanded and cheapend Star. The 1050 is the best progressive made, hands down.

If by "subtile nuances" you mean using Aluminum , zamak and plastic frames and parts I guess I don't appreciate what is actually setting their non 1050 presses apart from their competitors.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am taliking SDB's here, The 1050 is by far the best progressive out there right now and watching them in action in Dawson Precision's loading room is the reason why. They can be automated easily and will actually stand up to the rigors of producing 1800 RPH day after day.

The use of permanent mold pressure castings for intricate parts on the SDB's that require minimal machining afterwards is one point.

The use of delrin bushings and sliders that virtually elimiate lube requirements and are super cheap to make but are still relatively high quality is another. Also cheap and easy to replace. Inexpensive does not necessarily mean cheap.

The use of nice aluminum castings for applications that don't require the strength of steel or cast iron.

This is the engineering I am talking about. Nothing wrong with using these materials as long as you use them in their proper places. If fact it is "preferrable" to use these materials in place of the others as they are perfectly serviceable , and cost effective.

Not every thing has to be made from steel and cast iron. Engineering is evolving and new materials are being used for things they were never used for before. Look at all the carbon fibre being used in race cars, and now the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner just released, is all composite. 20 years ago the whole plane was aluminum now it's all CF. Maybe CF is better? Boeing thinks so.

The grills on new Ford F250 pickups are "solid chrome plated Plastic" and they are lighter and more serviceable than any of the cheap pot metal grills from the past. They can take a small hit and not dent unlike pot metal, and if you have to replace one it is a lot less expensive than the metal ones that preceeded it. Looks better too!

Glocks are another example, and regardless of ones views on Glocks there are more in service than any other pistol in history. You can't argue with that type of success.

As far as Dillon is concerned,"You can't argue with that type of success!"

Randy

[quasi]

I have no experience with SDB's, I am sure they work much better than LEE's presses.

[Casting Timmy]

The two big reasons I went with a 550 are that is has a good resale and I got a good deal on mine. Although the real reason I went with the 550 is that it's been produced forever without changing! I don;t have to worry about finding used parts or conversion parts since they stopped making teh press.

I was really thinking going with RCBS's press first, but I didn't like the cost and I didn't feel that I could reliably find used conversion kits if they ever discontinued it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Timmy: this is the reason why outfits like Mercedes don't change a body style but every ten years or so. I makes the used ones hold their value.

Also, when you get something right there is no need to change it.

Change for the sake of change is a liberal concept that I totally disagree with.

Change for betterment can be a good thing as long as that change,,, IN fact,,, does produce a better product.

A change that produces an inferior product is idiotic and needs to be reversed as soon as possible.

You can make anything work in your head, if it doesn't work in the real world in is useless.

The liberal mind is full of ideas, however few actually work in the real world. Why we have to suffer with the continuous nonsense is beyond me. That all of their ideas seem to cut down on my freedom is why I dislike them so!

They don't know,,, that they don't know. This defines them as fools. Don't follow fools.

Randy

[dauntlessdave]

change for the sake of change is a liberal concept that i totally disagree with.


Randy

amen!

[captain awesome]

here's my 2 cents and it may not even be worth that;
I own a LNL, a 550, a lee 3 stage turret, and lee hand press, and 2 MEC shot shell re-loaders, I haven't done much with shot shells though.

I am currently planning on purchasing a Dillon 1050 to run 308, 223, and perhaps 30/06 through.

Here are my observations;



The Dillon 550;

I wish it had at least 1 more station (not Dillons fault, it was designed for 4, they have a different 5 stage press, I got the press for free, so I really shouldn't hold that against them.)

I can't stand the primer slide. It seems that a small ridge and stop for guidance for the slide to be in the EXACT right place would a tremendous improvement.

I have problems with primer feeding. I have never been able to pinpoint the cause, sometimes it double feeds sometimes nothing at all. This happens at least a couple times when ever I refill the primer tube.

I have issues with inconsistent powder charges with extruded powders.

I always forget which way the screw on the charge bar is supposed to turn to make a larger or smaller powder charge.

I don't like that in order to use the safety return on the powder measure it MUST be on station 2.

The stations are a little too close together and can be difficult to tighten the nuts at times because of this.

I don't like the Dillon case mouth expander/powder drop tubes for pistol calibers, but I am stuck using them unless I want to scrap the powder measure all together.

I don't like that it doesn't have an option to swage/uniform primer pockets.

I do like the method of retaining the shell plate. It works well and never comes loose.

I do like the way the manual indexing works. Never had a problem with it.

I have mixed feelings about the locator pins, They work well, never break but they are harder/slower to deal with than a spring loop IMO. And the pins are easy to loose though I haven't yet, (Knock on wood)

I REALLY like the shell ejector. Again, no problems EVER.

The used primer catch seems on the small side, though I have yet to have an issue with it.

Those are the good and bad that stand out on that press,



Here's the Hornady LNL;

I don't like the primer slide, though I think it is better than Dillons attempt. If one granule of powder gets in the grove it halt's every thing and has to be cleared. I always have a dental pick and a straw to clean/blow it out if necessary.

I do like that every time I raise the ram it feeds exactly one primer, every time until the hopper tube is empty.

The case ejector is lousy. I have rounds get caught in it entirely too often. It is very easily cleared, but it is irritating none the less.

The palls for auto indexing are cheap pot metal. they break or chip too easily causing the press to go out of time or become a single stage until they are adjusted or replaced. Usually this is caused by a surprise military crimped casing, getting caught up in the priming station. I have learned to watch out for it, but a friend recently broke the hell out of it because he didn't know any better. Hornady's warranty service is top notch BTW.

The primer slide is also made of cheap pot metal AKA MIM, and can be broken if you're not careful. gain, beware of crimped primer pockets.

The spent primer tube comes off easily and needs a hose clamp.

The powder measure I really like for the most part. It is very consistent. The one thing I would change is the inserts for the cylinder. Instead of requiring 2 cylinders, why not just design 2 inserts for the same rotor that can be changed out with the push of the button? And coming standard with micrometer readings would be a nice touch.

The base of the press where the priming punch connects needs a hard plate. Mine wore a dimple into it and got to the point where it no longer seated all the primers flush with the case head. I glued a steel washer in place there and haven't had a problem since.

With certain loads in certain straight wall cartridges, the indexing snaps into place too abruptly and causes a few granules of powder to slosh out of the case sometimes. It could stand to be smoothed out.

I wish they had a more secure way of holding the shell plate on. I have found it tends to loosen over time, and if over tightened it causes to much resistance to index properly.

It needs a primer pocket swage/uniformer.

I LOVE the Lock'n Load die bushings. That was a stroke of genius.



My Ideal press;

Has smooth auto indexing with robust hard steel forged palls that won't go out of time.

Has the powder measure like the LNL but with the inserts I mentioned marked as micrometers.

Has the Dillon style of shell plate retention.

Has a primer slide/system similar to the LNL but more robust (forged steel), with sharp square edges instead of round, and vents underneath for any spilled or loose powder granules to fall through to prevent hangups.

Has the LNL Die bushings or similar.

Has the shell ejector of the Dillon.

Has a primer pocket swager/uniformer.

Has a hard plate installed under the priming cup on the base of the press.

Spent primer tube clamped in place.

Case mouth expander/ powder drop tubes designed like the Lyman M dies, with an option to not expand in that step at all if desired.

Stations far enough apart to have adequate work space for tightening and loosening things.

Stations;

1)Case feed and Lube
2)Decap/resize and Primer pocket swage on the down stroke.
3)prime/case trim
4)debur case mouth
5)Expand case mouth/ powder charge
6)Powder cop/check or lock out die
7)Bullet feed/seat
8)Crimp

Don't know if all that is possible, but I would love a press with all those features.

[DCM]

Take a look her for some of the upgrades you are looking for
http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296
at least on of the members here makes some press upgrades also.

[captain awesome]

Yeah, I can't for the life of me remember who it was but I bought the LED light, the strong mount and the ergonomic roller handle for the LNL from someone who MFG's that stuff on here.

And I am very pleased with those upgrades.

[M-Tecs]

captain awesome

I had the same issues with my 550’s. I sold them and purchased a 650. I really like the 650 so I purchase a second than a third. I have one for small prime one for large primer and one for 45/70. To that I added a 1050 for 223 and a 1050 for 45acp & 308. I really realy like the 650’s but I love the 1050’s.

Dillon measures usually will have issues with inconsistent powder charges with extruded powders until you increase the taper in the powder tube and polish them.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=154783

http://www.shootersforum.com/handloa...-opinions.html

http://reloaderchoice.com/showthread.php?t=76

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296...e_Accuracy.pdf go to tip 15

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...2&#entry476442

http://www.triggerctrl.com/articles/...ting-the-xl650

[dsol]

I have an older Square Deal press from the '80's and it is great for pistol rounds. Changeover to other calibers takes a little more time and the primer system needs some adjustment but I wouldnt change much. Even propriatary dies dont bother me much, they are good quality and do the job well. I need a bouple more tool heads for the dies and allmost all would be good.

I wish it would work for 30 carbine though. That is the only caliber I reload that I cannot do on it. Dillon says the press cannot handle the pressure of sizing the tapered cases, but if they were lubed I think they would work fine. I wish someone could make a custom set of dies for it but I think they would cost as much as getting a used 450.

[dauntlessdave]

Some very good stuff there M-Tecs.........thanks.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Here is a solid reason Dillon needs to update:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=166612

Regardless of what the cause is, the fact is, more than one primer detonated. The first primer might have been human error. The rest of the primers detonating was failure of design. A change in the design to one that separates the primer being seated from the primers being fed is in order.

One can argue the issue till one is blue in the face, but this is a clear example of a dated, less safe design.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Here is a solid reason Dillon needs to update:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=166612

Regardless of what the cause is, the fact is, more than one primer detonated. The first primer might have been human error. The rest of the primers detonating was failure of design. A change in the design to one that separates the primer being seated from the primers being fed is in order.

One can argue the issue till one is blue in the face, but this is a clear example of a dated, less safe design.

With respect Dave, the primer being seated IS away from the others. The 650 uses a primer wheel. If a primer is smashed or gets under the wheel, it may be able to get back around to the other primers… but we may never know the actual cause of the detonation. I would think that it would “feel” different. As long as humans are involved with mechanical reloading devices, there will be human caused errors of some type. Usually they are just annoyances. Other times, they cause larger failures. Even if it is something as innocuous as forgetting to blow out the spent primer dust out of the press once in a while. If not done regularly, it can bind things up.

I love to reload, but my carpal tunnel won’t allow me to get the ammo I need without an efficient progressive. I was very glad to get away from manually priming off the press. My presses do what they were designed to do, but I have to do my part too. I inspect every piece of brass closely. I look especially hard at 45ACP for crimped or small primers. I blow debris off my press often. I know I wouldn’t have as much debris if I deprimed off the press, but I choose not to. I also take my time when I load. It is not a time to rush anything. I want to feel the primer going in. I generally know when something is amiss.