Swaged bullet for sale??

[DukeInFlorida]

I think there's a pretty good and clear distinction between:

• making 100 pcs for someone for a price
• and having a few leftovers that you had previously bought from a store (no longer have the gun, etc, blah blah..) that you'd like to sell or trade.

The person with zero posts was obviously asking me to do the first one.

And, that activity requires a FFL, Class 6 license.

[I'll Make Mine]

I agree, thanks -- that clears things up. Still astonishing that the Feds could/would arrest someone who has a cow for selling a half pint of cream (when I was a kid, we used to prefer raw milk; a local dairy had grass-fed raw milk that tasted better/different from the supermarket stuff -- and no, I don't recall anyone getting sick from it), but at least now I know how to avoid that problem if I ever get to the point of casting or swaging bullets for sale.

[Reload3006]

HERE IS THE EMAIL I SENT TO THE ATF
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 7:17 PM
To: Webmaster
Subject: Projectile Manufacturing

ATF
I have in the past year bought swaging supplies and tools to make my own projectiles it is for my own use. And I have not sold any nor do I really intend to sell any. However I have had several friends request to buy some of my bullets. I have been told that I need an FFL by some people while other say that as long as I am not selling a completed round (Case Primer Powder Bullet) then its not considered ammunition. While others tell me that if I manufacture a bullet (projectile only) that I must have an FFL license. I have decided to ask the source Any information you can provide me would be greatly appreciated as I certainly do not wish to run afoul of the law.

HERE IS THEIR RESPONSE
Subject: RE: Projectile Manufacturing

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email dated July 13, 2011, in which you inquired about manufacturing projectiles and if you needed a Federal firearms license (FFL).

The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(A)].

No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from ATF [18 U.S.C. 923(a)].

The term "engaged in the business" as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(B)].

Information about obtaining a FFL can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html.

Additionally, there may be State laws that pertain to your proposed activity. You should forward all inquiries as to State law to your State's Attorney General Office. A listing of the State Attorney General offices is available online at www.naag.org.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,
Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF
Make up your own minds.

[Mooseman]

Basically YOU do not need a license to make Boolits for yourself or to make some for your friends as a Hobby...

There is actually NO restrictions on Muzzleloader balls and maxi-balls since BATFE does not consider them to be firearms.

[DukeInFlorida]

The term "engaged in the business" as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(B)].

---------------

Therein lays the essence for their broad interpretation of the law........ Selling them, whether 100 pcs for profit, or 10,000 pcs for profit. same thing.

[I'll Make Mine]

The term "engaged in the business" as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(B)].

---------------

Therein lays the essence for their broad interpretation of the law........ Selling them, whether 100 pcs for profit, or 10,000 pcs for profit. same thing.

Key phrase here ought to be "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" -- the courts, of course, aren't constrained to make sense, and if you wind up in court you've already lost years of income, but this phrase suggests those who sell an occasion box of 100 are in a different class from those who make even a sideline, never mind a full living at it.

Still, wouldn't want to try to explain that to a BATFE agent who has his handcuffs in one hand and his pistol in the other...

[DukeInFlorida]

Agreed!

[Sasquatch-1]

The term "engaged in the business" as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(B)].

---------------

Therein lays the essence for their broad interpretation of the law........ Selling them, whether 100 pcs for profit, or 10,000 pcs for profit. same thing.

Well the profit thing would be all you need to know. If I sold anyone 100 jacketed bullets that I swaged at a competitive price to those of the big manufacturers, I would probably have a 400 to 500% LOSS when my time and the cost of energy and equipment is factor in. I truely think to sell 100 jacketed bullets, that I have made, I would have to charge between $150.00 to $200.00 to make them profitable.

[Lizard333]

I don't see the difference between selling homemade bullets and reselling bullets that we bought. I have sold both types, and personally do not see myself as in violation of the law. If you feel comfortable reselling bullets, but don't feel comfortable selling your own, I don't see the difference. IF the law was concerned, I'm sure they would not share your distinction. Bullets are resold here every day, I haven't heard BATF here busting anyone.

Bottom line, do what your comfortable with. If you want to sell your swages bullets, fine. If you don't, then don't. Seems pretty simple.

[b52fizzle]

Hey lizard I think it boils down to taxation people reselling aren't generally profiting enough. You can make, own, and sell silencers, moonshine and tobacco as long as you pay the taxes.

[6mm win lee]

HERE IS THE EMAIL I SENT TO THE ATF
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 7:17 PM
To: Webmaster
Subject: Projectile Manufacturing

ATF
I have in the past year bought swaging supplies and tools to make my own projectiles it is for my own use. And I have not sold any nor do I really intend to sell any. However I have had several friends request to buy some of my bullets. I have been told that I need an FFL by some people while other say that as long as I am not selling a completed round (Case Primer Powder Bullet) then its not considered ammunition. While others tell me that if I manufacture a bullet (projectile only) that I must have an FFL license. I have decided to ask the source Any information you can provide me would be greatly appreciated as I certainly do not wish to run afoul of the law.

HERE IS THEIR RESPONSE
Subject: RE: Projectile Manufacturing

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email dated July 13, 2011, in which you inquired about manufacturing projectiles and if you needed a Federal firearms license (FFL).

The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(A)].

No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from ATF [18 U.S.C. 923(a)].

The term "engaged in the business" as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(B)].

Information about obtaining a FFL can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-to/become-an-ffl.html.

Additionally, there may be State laws that pertain to your proposed activity. You should forward all inquiries as to State law to your State's Attorney General Office. A listing of the State Attorney General offices is available online at www.naag.org.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.

Regards,
Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF
Make up your own minds.

That is all fine and dandy. However the ATF and the rest of the Government of the Union always leave out one thing. Jurisdiction.

Sure the ATF gave you references to the GCA of 1968 but you must read the entire Act and all of the amendments and repeals to understand the legal impact on any citizen of a State of the Union.

We all understand the old admonition, Ignorance of the law is no excuse. So here is the law.

We understand the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and all acts of the Congress must conform to the Constitution.

Congress, meaning any thing created by the Congress, only has authourity where it has been granted. (Always keep this in mind.) The supreme law of the land says so.

So. So the GCA of 1968 is supposed to be constitutional to have effect. And it does because it tells us in Section 921a2.

First the Constitution.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 17:

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same [federal place] shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock-yards, and other needful buildings...

Now Title 18 USC 921a2 (chapter 44 is the GCA of 1968)

-HEAD-
Sec. 921. Definitions

-STATUTE-
(a) As used in this chapter -

(2) The term "interstate or foreign commerce" includes commerce
between any place in a State and any place outside of that State,
or within any possession of the United States (not including the
Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not
include commerce between places within the same State but through
any place outside of that State. The term "State" includes the
District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the
possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).

Every place you read the word State in any section of the codified Act or the original Statute at Large the jurisdiction is defined.

So as the Statute states we citizens of the States of the Union should be able to create and buy and sell at will unless of course you move to the District of Columbia or the possessions or territories or on military lands or wherever else Congress has authority.

A well researched and scholary write up of the matter can be found at http://www.originalintent.org/edu/chapter44.php as well as other articles.

6

[DukeInFlorida]

Ummmmmmmmmm.......... all well and good for you "Constitutionalists".........

However, the randomness with which the ATF has defined laws is well documented through history going back to the days of the revenuers. When prohibition ended, and all of the agents had nothing else to do, the genesis of the current day ATF was born.

The antics of this government agency were documented in a fictional story, interlaced with historical facts, written by John Ross ( a member here at Castboolits), "Unintended Consequences"
http://john-ross.net/store.php


The purpose of my post was to alert others that in these weird times, especially prior to THIS election, the ATF will try to divert all attentions from the President, and place them on a "news story" like Ruby Ridge, etc.

I do NOT, and you should NOT, want to be the subject of that story. Constitutional rights aside. . . . THEY will do whatever they damn well please.

I make swaged bullets solely for my own use. I am NOT in the business of making swaged bullets for sale, nor do I have any interest in selling any. Even the few that I provided to various police departments for their libraries were provided free of charge, including me paying for the postage, as a public service.

[garym1a2]

Even if it was legal I would not sell boolits, bullets or reloaded ammo. If your projectile is in a gun that blows up the shooter can sue you and blaim you for a defective bullet. It will cost you a ton of money to defend yourself. I only give my ammo to my brothers and inform them to NEVER let someone else shoot them. Once my older brother was wavering and about to offer rounds to another shooter. I let him know clearly if he did than he never gets another round from me.

[I'll Make Mine]

The problem, 6mm, is that even if you're right and you manage to prove in court that BATFE doesn't have jurisdiction for your particular case, you'd have to spend millions of dollars (lots of millions) in legal costs just to stay out of jail if BATFE disagreed with you. If you prove to be wrong, you could be convicted of a Federal felony, spend some considerable time in a prison (at least the Fed pens have better facilities and generally higher class of co-detainees than most state prisons) -- and permanently lose your right to own any kind of firearm.

Remember the old song lyrics -- "Breaking rocks in the burning sun, I fought the law and the law won."

[shooterg]

The problem - for years now we've been living under administrations and judges who DO NOT CARE what the Constitution says.

[John Ross]

I was asked to chime in here. This reminds me of why I got an FFL originally in 1975. I sent a letter to ATF asking them to clarify what constituted "Dealing in firearms." They said that "Disposing of a collection" did NOT meet the standard.

I then explained that I was a young collector, and like most collectors (of anything), I would often fund the purchase of a new acquisition with the sale of a less desirable piece. I did not intend to dispose of my entire collection for another 50+ years. Given the realities of inflation, a gun acquired years before was likely to be worth at least a little more in nominal dollars, so where was the line determining "dealing in firearms"?

I asked them if there was a dollar amount in "profit" per year that would not meet the threshold--less than $1000? $500? $100?

Or was it number of guns sold at a profit per year, in the course of improving a collection? Five? Three? One? One every two years?

Their reply was "We will judge each case individually."

I applied for an FFL that day.

Note to lizard333: The difference between selling bullets you bought at a store and bullets you made is that taxes have been paid on the store-bought bullets. This is what trips up many people who sell stuff they've made, not realizing that the articles in question are subject to federal excise taxes.

[DukeInFlorida]

Thanks for the comments, John.

I strongly (How strong can I make it?).... STRONGLY... recommend that you all read John's book, previously mentioned.

The pre-prohabition tax revenuers were after the collection of taxes on alcohol. As a way of stopping the sale of alcohol. John's comments about excise tax on ammo are spot on. The ATF came from the old tax revenuers. They know a thing about how to collect, and put people in jail.

Just be careful, folks.

[Wayne Smith]

I was asked to chime in here. This reminds me of why I got an FFL originally in 1975. I sent a letter to ATF asking them to clarify what constituted "Dealing in firearms." They said that "Disposing of a collection" did NOT meet the standard.

I then explained that I was a young collector, and like most collectors (of anything), I would often fund the purchase of a new acquisition with the sale of a less desirable piece. I did not intend to dispose of my entire collection for another 50+ years. Given the realities of inflation, a gun acquired years before was likely to be worth at least a little more in nominal dollars, so where was the line determining "dealing in firearms"?

I asked them if there was a dollar amount in "profit" per year that would not meet the threshold--less than $1000? $500? $100?

Or was it number of guns sold at a profit per year, in the course of improving a collection? Five? Three? One? One every two years?

Their reply was "We will judge each case individually."

I applied for an FFL that day.

Note to lizard333: The difference between selling bullets you bought at a store and bullets you made is that taxes have been paid on the store-bought bullets. This is what trips up many people who sell stuff they've made, not realizing that the articles in question are subject to federal excise taxes.

One correction, John. The excise tax applies only to the assembled, loaded ammunition, not to the components prior to assembly. It also only applies to the initial assembly, not to reloaded brass. Strange, but this is what the BATF agents told me. The excise tax goes back to the late '20s and applies to original materials.

[R.Ph. 380]

Thanks for the comments, John.

I strongly (How strong can I make it?).... STRONGLY... recommend that you all read John's book, previously mentioned.

The pre-prohabition tax revenuers were after the collection of taxes on alcohol. As a way of stopping the sale of alcohol. John's comments about excise tax on ammo are spot on. The ATF came from the old tax revenuers. They know a thing about how to collect, and put people in jail.

Just be careful, folks.

I have ordered Brian's .224 swaging die set and intend it for my exclusive use(well mine and my Son-In-Law's exclusive use) and don't see where it would be in my interest to get rid of any of the hard earned boolits I may make to anyone. I would just have to go buy some professionally manufactured ones and that's what I am trying to forestall anyway.

It would be diseconomic for me to try to sell something that took my time and would cost me more money than I could get for my product. It just doesn't make any sense.

Bill

[merlin101]

I think there's a pretty good and clear distinction between:

• making 100 pcs for someone for a price
• and having a few leftovers that you had previously bought from a store (no longer have the gun, etc, blah blah..) that you'd like to sell or trade.

The person with zero posts was obviously asking me to do the first one.

And, that activity requires a FFL, Class 6 license.

Thanks for makeing that clear, I was about ready to go delete my for sale post! (some I picked up and have no use for)
I had no idea about a license for selling bullets or boolits.