OK I'll ask!

[DeanoBeanCounter]

I can't find info any place so I'll just ask. Can the black powder substitutes be used directly to replace black powder? And if not, what adjustments need to be made. Tell me pros, cons, and anything you think might be helpful about using the substitutes. I know nobody likes the subs, but it's still something to play with once or twice.
Thanks
Deano

[Buckshot]

................I've used some Pyrodex before but that is my sum total of the substitutes. Pyrodex was the first and then there became so many of'em I lost track. Not that I was trying to keep up by any means. I think a coupole places even made 2 different fake BP's.

I will hazard a supposition based upon what I've heard, and it may apply to all the johnny come latelys, and that is to use a volumn equivelent. So if you used 70.0 grs of 2Fg you left the measure set there and dipped the 2fg equivelent volumn of whatever substitute you were using.

Naturally the smart person will research some more rather then pay any attention to what someone who really isn't interested in them posted . I do understand that the 777 stuff is a real favorite of a lot of the substitute users, but it costs almost as much as smokless and is pretty powerfull stuff?

.................Buckshot

[wiljen]

I've used some triple Seven in BP cartridges I can tell you one change and that is use the hottest primer you can find. Triple Seven is tough to ignite and when using two pellets and a mild primer, the pellet furthest from the primer is expelled from the gun unburnt. The same phenomenon can be seen in muzzle loaders when using perc. caps instead of 209s.

[Onlymenotu]

I've used both in my blackpower muzzleloaders the Pyrodex uses the same grainage as the holy black and the pellet as little bit of the holy back one one end of it to help with ignition. where as Triple Seven you must decrease the powder charge by 15% and the Triple Seven does not have the ignition pad of the holy black on the end so they can be/are harder to light up in some guns

[Jon K]

What are you going to use it for? ML or CTG?

Subs are mostly exchange by volume not weight.

Jon

[dnepr]

Most substitutes are harder to ignite than black . I use a small amount of black dribbled into the flash channel of my hawkens. I then replace the nipple and cap with a regular percussion cap. This is what I do when hunting with my muzzle loader to insure dependable ignition. I have been told that the substitutes will not work in flintlocks without a small charge of real black poured in first and the rest then can be 777 pyrodex ect. I prefer real black most of the time but it is getting harder to find all the time around here so I use the substitute a fair bit .

[floodgate]

Deano:

As noted above, Pyrodex is loaded to the same VOLUME as BP; it is only about 2/3 the weight for the same volume, so loading by weight can give you a serious over-charge if you are near maximum. I've heard the 777 is a bit hotter, so you may need to back off a bit - but have not used it myself.

For that matter, even the BP's vary among themselves, Swiss generally being hotter, volume for volume, than the older GOEX, Elephant, etc. But that is all hearsay; I'm still using up a couple of cans of old pre-GOEX Dupont I had stashed away.

Best to check out and go with the powder makers' instructions, or a recent edition of one of the BP Handbooks; in any case, start off on the light side and work up, just as with a new smokeless powder.

floodgate

[wills]

This may seem a bizarre approach, but how about consulting the manufacturer?
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading

[spottedpony]

ive used all 3 in a percussion .50, & ive fuond pyrodex to burn about the same as conventional black. 777 is a bit hotter & to load comparible velocities to black or pyrodex charges need to be reduced 10 to 15 percent. (hogdens site even mentions this) and ive had no ignition problems with it at all. 777 burns cleaner & shoots the same for me as goex, though its not recommended to use the pellets in percussion or flinters because of ignition problems. Pellets also limit you to the charges you can shoot, and are way more expensive.
with flint, its recommended to use a 5 gr or so primer charge under the main charge of 777 to help with ignition.

[Dale53]

I prefer real black powder as I have had no problems getting it (I live just an hour away from Friendship, IN - the home of the NMLRA) and have also mail ordered it by the case.

Elephant (pretty much a thing of the past) was slow, Goex is medium, and Swiss is fast (genuine rating with the chronograph). Elephant was great in the .45 Colt (case full of 2F runs about 750 fps in a 7.5" revolver) as it makes for a lower recoiling load - more pleasant to shoot. Swiss is great if you want to get maximum performance in the .45 Colt (3F will give you about 1000 fps with a 250 gr bullet) for hunting use, etc. It will shoot clear through a deer, for instance. Using BP or Pyrodex, accuracy has been quite good (2" at 25 yards). In the same revolvers, using smokeless, it is no great trick to get 1.5" at 25 yards.

I won several pounds of Pyrodex Pistol and used it with excellent results for buffalo side matches (both score and silhouette). In my Vaquero and Bisley Vaquero I can get 75 good accurate rounds before the cylinder starts binding. This with the Lyman cowboy 250 gr bullet and Emmert's Home Mix lube. The alloy I use for BP revolver use is 25/1 lead/tin.

In a revolver, you fill the case until it is just 1/16" higher than bullet base when seated (in other words, you compress the powder 1/16" when seating the bullet). Otherwise I load conventionally. In fact, I load my .45 Colt BP rounds on my Dillon (don't tell Dillon, they'll have a heart attack).

You results will vary as to how many accurate loads you'll get before the cylinder "ties up" from BP fouling. Each revolver is a law unto itself. However, using Rig liberally on the cylinder pin is very helpful before starting to shoot. I immediately, after a shoot, at the range, decap the cases and drop them in a milk jug about 3/4 full of water with a couple of squirts of Dawn dishwashing liquid soap. By the time you get home, most of the real cleaning work is done. I then rinse carefully,several times in hot clear water (tap water) then throw them in a collander (do not borrow your wife's collander for this but buy a plastic one at the kitchen supply store and dedicate it to BP case cleaning). As soon as the water drains away ( just shake it a bit and most of the water will "leave"). I then, while the cases are still wet, throw them in the Dillon large vibratory cleaner. In a couple of hours, the cases look like new.

I clean the revolvers at the range using Friendship Speed Juice and finishing off with Ed's Red. It takes less than ten minutes and the job is done. I don't know about the rest of you, but after a full day at the range, the last thing I want to do is to have to clean BP firearms AFTER I get home. I do them at the range and I am DONE when I get home...

Dale53

[Ohio Rusty]

Heys Deano .... Over on the Cas City cowboy site, they have tons of BP Subs related posts about your exact question. It appears many of the CAS shooters in the Darksiders Forum shoot BP Subs and they also talk about their load data. You ought to slip over to that forum and read Darksider archives and I'd bet you'll get all the answers you are looking for.
Ohio Rusty

[omgb]

In cartridges, Pyrodex never really gave me the same accuracy but that was not the same experience others had. I tried a couple of pounds of 777 and found it OK. It is hotter than BP but it lights well enough with federal large rifle primers.

[DeanoBeanCounter]

Jon K, I'm thinking of loading a few for my 38 and 30-30. Just to play a little.
wills, that is a rather bizarre suggestion. I all else fails, follow the directions.
Ohio Rusty, Cas City is a good place.
Thank you all. It's all good advice that I will take to heart.
Deano

[Jon K]

Deano,

Dale hit the nail on the head, I'm doing the same for a buddy for 45 Colt & 38-55.
Using Goex Pinnacle 3F, it meters better than 2F. Subs are bulkier than BP, and don't like compression(follow what Dale said "about 1/16" compression) I have tried APP, Pyrodex and Pinnacle. Shoots accurate for the short range. Subs still don't do as well as BP.

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon

[Ricochet]

On the "subs don't like compression" front, exactly how don't they like it?

(I've been very heavily compressing Pyrodex RS in my cap & ball revolver. It's quite squishy. BP won't crunch down so easily.)

[crossfireoops]

B.P. is not a good propellant....

it's A GREAT propellant.

Standard deviations less than 5 fps not that hard to get.

Just my $.02

GTC

[6pt-sika]

I've not used BP or subs in any cartridge guns so far

But it's only a matter of time ! That is if my Sharps ever gets here .

In ML's I own three inlines at the moment and have been using granulated Triple 7 FFFG for a few years now with excellent results . I also use CCI209M primers to light this stuff . I however do not shoot 150 grains by volume of this but rather stick in the 110-120 by volume range . And it has performed very well with 250 grain saboted bullets in the 50's and 200 grain saboted bullets in my 45 .

[Jon K]

Ricochet,

To clarify my statement "subs don't like compression" I have found that in my use of subs in 38-55,40-65 & 45-70 cartridge rifles, the velocities in SD & ES become erratic, and accuracy becomes inconsistant. The subs perform better with minimal compression seems to perform better in Cartridge Rifles for me, out to 200.
I tried the subs because I am allergic to Suphur, but I am shooting BP, because I have not been able to make the subs perform as accuratly and consistantly. So I take what precautions I need to be careful and "Have Fun Shooting"

Also I did very little testng with Pyrodex.
I have no experience w/cap & ball guns, and make no claims toward them.

Jon

[Ricochet]

Thanks!

That's what I've thought, that the compression delays ignition and effectively makes it burn progressively as the flame steadily penetrates the porous mass while the pressure on the rear of the "wad" of compressed powder starts pushing the boolit up the bore. Velocities end up being lower than one might expect for the increasing charge weight, but it burns cleanly. Pyrodex pellets are made from compressing RS in a die, with a layer of BP applied to one end.

I haven't tried any other BP substitute and would rather use FFFg. For that matter, I'd rather use Pyrodex P if I've got to use Pyrodex. But Pyrodex RS is stacked in the aisles of the Wal-Mart around hunting season. Nothing else is readily available, even in the gun shops. I could drive down to Widener's and get P Pyrodex, or spend megabucks and order BP online.

[Springfield]

BP, 11.60 a can, shipped, from Maine Powder House. Doesn't sound like megabucks to me.