BHN, Leading,Gas checks and such

[Forrest r]

I believe there is way too much emphasis put on bullet hardness. I’ve gotten in more trouble with leading over the years with hard cast boolits than I ever have with the softer cast boolits.

I’ve found that the harder the boolit is the less forgiving it is for the reloader. Softer boolits obulate better & tend to be more powder friendly.

Work up some test loads & go out and enjoy yourself. You can test all the different theories you’ve read about & come to your own conclusions.

[Reload3006]

Ok my take and its worth about as much as it cost you to read it. As others have already stated. Dont get too hung up on all the variables. Lots of us try to be non-degreed scientists and turn our hobby into a science fair project. Dont do that unless you need to. If you have a gun that keeps turning into a sewer pipe every time you shoot your lead boolits then yes back up and start evaluating things. look at how many 22Lrz are sold each year and you never hear about leading in a 22 but hey guess what they are shooting lead boolits. some are copper plated but most are just plane ole lead. One would think that they would just turn into a solid block of lead that couldnt shoot straight at all but 22s are just about the most accurate out of the box guns manufactured in our lifetimes.

1) dont get hung up in the I have to have the fastest most devastating gun boolit on the planet. You are sure to hurt yourself or someone else and hey if you cant hit what your aiming at with it its not devastating. So slow things down. Crawl Walk then run.

2) dont get too hung up on gas checks If you have a mold that is made for one then use them they aren't necessary per-se but they can cover a multitude of sins.

3) what size? well the least expensive thing to try first is drop your boolits and make a dummy round with one as dropped will it cycle? will it cycle easily in your rifle or in your hand gun, if so try them lubed as cast.

Take a slow and steady approach and have fun doing it. If its not fun there is really no reason to do it at all just go buy some bulk Jwords and load em up or buy cheap bulk ammo.

[44man]

I know is can be hard to interpret all this info, but that is how it is.
I only use all the manuals for the powder charges, never any of that lead use stuff.
I load for accuracy and only fool with alloys to reach that goal.
You are at a disadvantage having to buy boolits so buy good ones, not the big bulk stuff. Go to Cast Precision, Beartooth, etc. Lube might be a little hard but they will shoot.
The variation of BHN that can be shot without leading is very wide, so wide, stop reading about it. Just find the best shooting boolit and leave it at that.
The problem with buying boolits is to find the best for your gun.
Those of us that cast can take a good boolit design and alter how it shoots.
Is it rocket science? Yep! Some blew up on the pad, some went crazy so it was trial and error too.
If anyone has never shot cast and did nothing but read, boolits can also go crazy. You have to jump in, not stick a toe in hoping the water is not cold.

[beefyz]

Thanks to all who took the time to respond. You've given me enough hope here now to get me started. i just want to be a shooter , like gary cooper in sgt. york knocking that turkey off @100 yds with powder poured down the barrel from a horn under a cast he just pulled out of his pocket,not a scientist.hahaha. gobble gobble gobble
One last question, 44 MAN referred to Cast precision & Beartooth as having good lead. Any more recommendations like this. Remember , i can't follow your advice without a supply of bullets. I will NOT be casting. I'll have to rely on store bought and i'm assuming these will come lubed properly and ready to shoot.

[Larry Gibson]

beefyz

No those bullets can't be "bought" as such because i cast them myself. You can do the same if you want to or there are several commercial casters that do offer such or similar cast bullets. Sometimes with the smaller commercial casters if you by in quanity (like 2K- 5K) they will make a run of the bullet you want unsized and unlubed so you can do that yourself to the specs you want.

Larry Gibson

[Grandpas50AE]

Like Larry said there are some cast boolit operations that will either custom size or will ship unsized and unlubed on whatever boolit you order from them. I have used PENN (they have a website) , and they are good quality for consistent weight and dimension. I don't have a hardness tester, but they are good quality, and the owner is good to deal with. For the particular application I was using them for (.38 Super) I had them custom sized (a very small fee for doing so) but had to replace their lube with Javelina 50/50 lube.

[mdi]

Like williamwaco said, "don't try to solve problems you haven't encountered yet". I have successfully cast and shot lead bullets for a hair over 9 years, and just started playing with BHN. Actually some of my early books/manuals don't even mention BHN and some just talk a bit about it in passing (and of course no formulas for pressure/velocity). 95% of all my cast bullets were made up of wheel weight alloy and range scrap but, fitting the bullet to the cylinder throats, and using appropriate powders, I rarely see leading in my 5 revolvers (.38/357 and .44 Spec/Mag.), or fitting bullet to groove dia. my overbore Puma .44 Mag. I know it's really easy to get "overly involved" in a new hobby, reading/ researching all posssibe varients, but with casting bullets you can easily overthink the process and take the fun out of it. My suggestion would be to reread gear's first post, especially the first paragraph, and leave it at that. When/if you run into problems later with lead bullet loads, then maybe consider custom alloying your own lead. For now get some wheel weight alloy, melt it up, and cast some bullets. With bullets sized to fit your gun, and with a good lube, you prolly won't have any leading problems...

[geargnasher]

Awww, C'mon! Just get a Lee two cavity mould and small ladle furnace, Lee push-through sizer, Lyman rowell ladle, some 2-stroke oil, q-tips, box o'ingots from one of our vendor/sponsors, some lube from White Label or Randyrat (or make 45/45/10 Recluse lube with the liquid Alox that comes with the Lee sizer), get some silicone baking pans for pan lubing, and quit worrying about buying them, make your own!

You can get started casting for about a hundred bucks (less if you have an old stainless-steel saucepan and heat source) which will buy you about 1,000 commercial boolits that you're stuck with if they don't work. If you cast your own, you can just try different moulds and remelt any rejects or designs that don't work.

Ok, got it out of my system, carry on!

Gear

[runfiverun]

try 'carolina cast bullets' also, jerry is a member here.
that is his handle here.
shoot him a p.m. and tell him i sent you...
i believe he has a couple of different types of the rnfp for the 357.

[jandbn]

Any more recommendations like this. Remember , i can't follow your advice without a supply of bullets. I will NOT be casting. I'll have to rely on store bought and i'm assuming these will come lubed properly and ready to shoot.

Montana Bullet Works has a fair selection.

[1Shirt]

For what ever it is worth, I have never had any luck with gas check blts w/o checks at much over 1350-1400, regarding both leading and accuracy. I have taked plain base cast, at at least two thousands over groove dia up to and maybe a bit more over 1600. At 1700, I have had leading except for heavy plain base in 45-70. The key in my estimation for plain base blts accuracy is proper dia for the rifle and as close as possible to a perfect base.
1Shirt!

[williamwaco]

Now the BIG QUESTION. I did not mention this the first time. I do NO intend to cast my own.

You can buy almost any bullet you can buy a mold for.

That said, I have had very poor luck with cast handgun bullets. I have had severe leading with most of them.

I learned a simple solution to this problem.

If they lead, tumble them in LLA or Rooster jacket before loading. Lube right over the existing lube. No need to remove it.

See:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/l...let_lube_2.htm

for an example.

[williamwaco]

"Even Stephen Hawking had to start with 2+2.

This is supposed to be fun!

Forget all this overthinking.
Load 'em and shoot 'em.

Don't try to solve problems you haven't encountered yet.

Have some fun."

Bully!

Don't call me a sissy!

I'll hit you with my purse.


.

[462]

Don't call me a sissy!

I'll hit you with my purse.


.

Williamwaco,

Oh, my goodness, I didn't mean that you were being a bully. I meant bully, as in Teddy Roosevelt.

[44man]

Beefy, I think your questions have been answered.
I also say to make your own when you get the chance.
The worst boolits I tried to shoot were the 500 count bulk boolits with bevel bases that you can buy at distributors.
A few others were too hard and under size plus lube was so hard it broke off into the bottom of the box.

[KYCaster]

Beefy, first thing....don't get discouraged too easily. You've already found that this isn't going to be easy. Kinda like the old saying..."The quarry doesn't make the hunt, nor the goal the game." Getting there is half the fun....you just have to relax and enjoy the ride.

The guys here like to dump on commercial casters....seems like a sport for some, and an obsession for others. The fact is there are hundreds of commercial casters across the country and some of them actually make a decent, usable boolit.

I'm going to ride 44man a bit (I'll be gentle....no spurs! ).
"The worst boolits I tried to shoot were the 500 count bulk boolits with bevel bases that you can buy at distributors.
A few others were too hard and under size plus lube was so hard it broke off into the bottom of the box."

44man has often told us he prefers "harder" boolits for his handguns. "Hard" is a relative term and he doesn't actually define what is "harder" and what is "too hard". That's something you have to determine for yourself, and it's down on the list a bit below FIT and lube.

Bevel base vs. flat base has been argued here many times and both sides have tried to give supporting evidence without any clear consensus....the argument continues. My conclusion is,those who most vigorously support FB's think BB's are bad because that's what commercial casters sell. As long as FIT is right, the BB is a non-issue.

"Crayon lube" is a frequent target for ridicule here....about like Obama bumper stickers. I suppose if it doesn't stick to your fingers and make a mess of your dies and brass, it can't be doing its job. There are several lubes available for sale that will preform as well as and in many cases much better that most of the concoctions some of the guys here mix up. Peruse the Boolit Lube section and you'll soon see that failures out number successes, but most people don't spend much time talking about their failures. Kinda like WD40....what happened to WD1 thru WD39?

OK, I'm done with 44man.....I hope that didn't hurt too much.

The difficult task is finding a commercial boolit that will FIT, not only FIT your gun, but also FIT your application. It is available, but the only way to find it is to try various offerings till you find one that FITs. Call the casters and ask for samples...some will provide a few for free, others may sell a small quantity or a sample pack.

Talk to them about their product....I know, you already did that.....that's why you're here asking questions. Try again, with a little experience and knowledge it's not hard to tell the hucksters from the hustlers.

Do some research to see what molds are available that might be useful. Magma, Balisticast and Cast Pix mold reference are good places to start. Ask at the Boolit Swap section in Swapping and Selling you'll get plenty of things to try, then go back and talk to the casters about alloys and lube.

Relax and take some time to smell the Hoppe's. It may take a while to get where you want to be, but it can be an enjoyable journey.



Good luck and have fun.
Jerry

[williamwaco]

Williamwaco,

Oh, my goodness, I didn't mean that you were being a bully. I meant bully, as in Teddy Roosevelt.

Well, I guess I was just too "country" to get the British humor.
I didn't really think you were serious, I took it as a good joke and responded in kind.

The Teddy Roosevelt reference is pleasing since my grandfather was one of the "Rough Riders". I still have a dagger he brought back from Cuba.



.

[462]

Williamwaco,
Your grandfather was a true American hero.

Ironically, I just finished reading Teddy's account of the entire episode -- from recruitment to return. Shucks, I missed out going with Lewis and Clark, and the Rough Riders.

[williamwaco]

Williamwaco,
Your grandfather was a true American hero.

Ironically, I just finished reading Teddy's account of the entire episode -- from recruitment to return. Shucks, I missed out going with Lewis and Clark, and the Rough Riders.

Yeah,

Me too. The most exciting things we ever did was go "grabbling" in the Red River. They call it hand fishing today. And about twice a year we would go out to the "haunted" cemetery and wait for midnight.

I do remember one specific fun time at the cemetery, my buddy's 8 year old brother screamed "DID YOU HEAR THAT?"
No what was it?

"IT WAS A DEAD DOG MOANING!"

We laughed outselves sick. He never went with us again.

We look pretty puny when compared to our ancestors.




.

[44man]

Jerry, yes you can ride me a little.
I do like harder but a better word would be "tough." I want the boolit to stop skidding before the base band is reached.
Most of my boolits are just water dropped WW metal and it can vary between 18 to 22 BHN but I hate BHN readings and prefer alloy content.
I hate a bevel base, no need for them. I have removed the things from molds and increased accuracy by 2/3's.
I do not believe in expanding a boolit in any way, shape or form to fit. Do the fit first.
My premise is that if you get super accuracy from the "J" word stuff, why would you try to equal it with the wrong alloy? Your cast must act the same way.
It is true with testing I finally got a Keith to group by taking lead to 28 and 30 BHN with the addition of antimony and tin to WW metal to stop the little shoulder from being wiped off in the cone. Slump and skid stopped too.
Yet some of the store bought boolits were nothing but 10 yard shooters but good ones would do 1" at 100 yards.
Read the article about the one minute revolver. It is funny and they spent a fortune making the gun. They did not shoot cast either if I remember, I have to find it again. Yet I get cast to better that with out of box Ruger's and BFR's.
Cast is great and most guns are great but don't try over and over with loads that don't work. I really do take 1-1/2" targets off the rail at 100 yards from a rest. Plain old WW metal! I can't see smaller targets.
But I have shot shotgun shells in the bases at 50 yards. A base is 7/8" and I do it with a .500 JRH.