You Probably Know All About This Method !

[montana_charlie]

Is that to keep the leather clean ?

No, it's to eliminate any possibility that dissolved minerals might cause the paper to 'weld' to itself, or to the bullet, while drying.

It is the exact polar opposite of those who make up mixtures containing contaminates like egg whites, Elmer's glue, or bullet lubes to wet their patches with.

CM

[SharpsShooter]

Found an old leather purse in a thrift shop and took it apart.


DoctorBill

I spect` you got some "looks" when you paid for that purse

SS

[DoctorBill]

SharpShooter - These days I could have tried on and bought a dress and no one would
have batted an eye !

I got about 1.5 sq ft of nice kid leather out of that purse.
Made in China but nice leather.

I'm cheap.

Charlie - "...it's to eliminate any possibility that dissolved minerals might cause the paper
to 'weld' to itself, or to the bullet, while drying."

You mean like the proteins that you find in saliva....?

DoctorBill

[SharpsShooter]

SharpShooter - These days I could have tried on and bought a dress and no one would
have batted an eye !

I got about 1.5 sq ft of nice kid leather out of that purse.

DoctorBill

Yes sir. Sad but true. I enjoy the pictures, especially of the patching board. I use a top off a school desk. The routered groove for holding a pencil works similar to yours. Keep after it and enjoy.


SS

[DoctorBill]

Well, SharpShooter....since you like pictures....
That piece of leather came out of the old purse.



Here is my H&R, Inc US Springfield, Model 1873 Cavalry Model 45-70 reproduction
that I got at the Spokane Gunshow this November for $525.

I finally found a Vernier Sight that didn't cost one of my children to buy.
$70 at trackofthewolf.com - made in Italy by Davide Pedersoli.
Elevation, windage and tilt adjustable.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...=RS-CREED-3-WE

I very reluctantly drilled into the stock, threaded the holes to 4mmx0.7,
Instant Glued the wood threads several times, and then screwed in the 4mmx.7x10mm
bolts (coated with Johnson's Paste Wax - in and out to cut the threads sharp again).

I have to add some shim to the back side of the sight bottom since the angle
they manufactured into the stem is not quite correct for my Trapdoor model. Thus the piece of paper.

Not sure how I'll correct that.
Maybe instant glue or Epoxy filed and sanded until the correct angle is achieved.

I may inlet the sight base into the stock some day.

I cannot replace that stock so I am proceeding VERY, VERY CAREFULLY !

The aperture is 0.032" and too small for my old eyes.
I am going to increase it to 0.044" I think.
I have to find some numbered drills somewhere - maybe a No. 57 drill.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

I liked the slot because as you roll the bullet, the slot edges drag on the paper and make it tight - as tight as you push down while rolling.

It has always been my understanding that you wrap the patch by rolling the bullet on a flat surface. The surface can be hard and flat, or somewhat 'soft' like the leather that Rick uses.

But I am surprised to learn that you do the rolling while keeping the bullet captive in that groove.

I consider the groove as an instrument for aligning the bullet perfectly perpendicular to the paper ... afterwhich the bullet rolls up out of the groove for the actual application of the patch.
Mulhern appears to use the bottom edge of his leather for that alignment.

Here is Rick Mulhern, just rollin' along ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0MaivFyDh0

I also use the near edge for alignment, but I lay the bullet on the underlying board, and against the edge of a strip of foam tape (instead of leather). It's like a two-sided groove for the bullet to lay in ... before rolling up onto the padded surface, and away.

CM

[SharpsShooter]

MC,

That's the way Mathews describes doing it. He indicated he got tight patches from the induced drag of the paper over the groove edge. I have rolled them both ways and cannot tell the difference.

Good Video by the way.


SS

[montana_charlie]

MC,

That's the way Mathews describes doing it. He indicated he got tight patches from the induced drag of the paper over the groove edge.

That may be a help when dry wrapping. I will have to look into that.

Here is BrentD, wrapping one dry ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia44xyvOPPI

He might not need to 'scootch' it back toward him if it was in a groove.

CM

[DoctorBill]

I don't want to be a 'Buzzkill', but I would surely like to see Rick Mulhern re-do
that video and keep what he is doing on camera !

I do essentially the same thing, but what I really wanted to get a good look
at was the tucking of the ends onto the back end of the bullet.

My paper seems to just pop right back out !

I'd like to see how someone rolls the end into a tip, also.

I notice that Rick is rolling his patches in the opposite direction to what
Matthews shows in his book "The Paper Jacket".

Also - does it make any difference how far forward the paper is past the
curve of the ogive ?

I would suspect that the paper could almost extend past the bullet tip and
not make any difference at all - except perhaps it would peel off better when
it exits the barrel !

More air resistance - would 'catch the wind' as it were.

It looks like there are as many ways to roll a paper patch as there are
ways to roll a cigarette or kiss a girl !

Any comments ?

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

My paper seems to just pop right back out !

Yours must not be onionskin paper. Is it pretty stiff to start with?

I'd like to see how someone rolls the end into a tip, also.

Do you mean into a 'tail'? The 'other foum' will help you with that.

I notice that Rick is rolling his patches in the opposite direction to what
Matthews shows in his book "The Paper Jacket".

Perhaps Matthews was patching for a left hand twist barrel.

Also - does it make any difference how far forward the paper is past the
curve of the ogive ?

Most patch to the end of the cylindrical portion of the bullet. I go a tenth farther because my recovered bullets show that they bump up enough to be engraved that far ahead of the edge of the patch.
You want the patch to extend forward just far enough to prevent contact between lead and steel.

I would suspect that the paper could almost extend past the bullet tip and
not make any difference at all - except perhaps it would peel off better when
it exits the barrel !

If the rifling lands can't press the paper against the bullet (because the bullet nose is too small in diameter), the land will not slice the paper into ribbons all the way to the leading edge.
Any paper that is not 'ribboned' it's full length comes off as 'postage stamps' instead of as 'confetti'.
Postage stamps have a tendency to 'flutter' before letting go of the bullet, which can be expected to detrimentally affect the bullet's stability.

More air resistance - would 'catch the wind' as it were.

Or ... more like having the hood on your '55 Chevy flip open at highway speeds.

CM

[DoctorBill]

I have been using NewsPrint (0.004 " thick).

For the few I wrapped to fire form my home made 24 gauge Magtech Martini-Henry
cases, I used tracing paper (0.002 " thick).

The NewsPrint is soft - the tracing paper is crisp.

What is the 'other foum' ?

My rifles (Martini-Henry and trapdoor 45-70) right twist.

So the way Matthews did it, the paper would be unwound off by the bullet
rotating to the right.

The paper's edge would be lifted up and unwound as the right hand twist
is doing it's 40 - 60,000 rpm thing.

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

DoctorBill

I'm known around these parts as a 'problem solver'....so what ya need to do is catch a flight down to Monroe, La. Call me when you arrive....I'll put you up for two days....feed ya 1/2 gallon of FAMOUS GROUSE....expose you to the finer points of PAPER PATCHING....and 'both exposures' should send you home with a wide grin on ya face! Just promise not to slap those stewardesses on their fannies on the way home!!


stewardesses by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

[montana_charlie]

I have been using NewsPrint (0.004 " thick).

That is thick paper. Two wraps increase the bullet by something like twelve to sixteen thousandths?

For the few I wrapped to fire form my home made 24 gauge Magtech Martini-Henry cases, I used tracing paper (0.002 " thick).

That sounds about right, and tracing paper is probably very similar to onionskin.

The NewsPrint is soft - the tracing paper is crisp.

Of the two, I would think that newsprint would be the least desirable when trying to get it to take a permanent fold.

What is the 'other foum' ?

The Smokeless Paper Patching forum. They use a number of techniques that you won't find here. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=62

My rifles (Martini-Henry and trapdoor 45-70) right twist.

So the way Matthews did it, the paper would be unwound off by the bullet
rotating to the right.

I have learned a lot by collecting undamaged bullets from snowbanks, and examining them to determine a number of things. One thing dealt with wrap direction.

This is a personal theory of mine, and I have proved it to my satisfaction. Nobody is required to take my word for it, but it goes like this ...

I collected bullets which were essentially perfect. The impression of the paper was very distinct, and the bullet had no alterations to it's basic shape.
But, there was this 'wrinkle' in the shank which resembled a casting flaw.
Because I cull so intensely, a flaw was impossible. When the feature persisted, and no obvious nswer was forthcomming, I decided the paper was being 'loosened' by the rifling at the instant the bullet started to move. THis would result in a slight wrinkle in the patch, which would get ironed into the lead as the bullet expanded.

I began wrapping in the opposite direction and the wrinkle disappeared.

Here is a pair of pictures which show the 'before and after' on the wrinkle issue.



Also of note, the engraving of the bullet on the left shows that the patch was a little too short, even though it reached exactly to the beginning of the ogive. This was due to the bullet nose bumping up enough to get over bore diameter. The later bullet had the patch applied a tenth of an inch further forward, and gave a proper indication of engraving to the patch leading edge.

I spoke about this issue in my last post, and my comment was directed at how the patch is cut when the leading edge is correctly positioned.

Here are some patch particles. First is what properly 'ribboned' paper looks like when it comes off as 'confetti'.



Then, a shot that shows what happens when the slicing doesn't quite reach the leading edge. I call these 'postage stamps'.



Now, back to your questions ...

The paper's edge would be lifted up and unwound as the right hand twist
is doing it's 40 - 60,000 rpm thing.

Nobody (at least nobody I know of) depends on the patch unrolling in order to get free of the bullet.
You have probably seen slow-motion depictions of a birdshot charge leaving a shotgun barrel. The plastic wad has fingers which curl outward, and it basically 'stops' while the shot load continues.

We want the ribboned patch to flare like that shotcup, and drop off without disturbing the bullet. Friction heat causes the plastic wad fingers to curl out, and we may depend on 'wind' to pull the 'paper fingers' out. But having them act as air brakes to let the payload proceed without interference is the same idea.
The preceding pictures should help you visualize that.

CM

[DoctorBill]

Quote - I have been using News Print (0.004 " thick).

M_C - "That is thick paper. Two wraps increase the bullet by something like twelve to sixteen thousandths?"

This goes way back to previous threads about my modified bullet and how large the brass fire forms in my Mark II Martini-Henry.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...15&postcount=1
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...-Henry-577-450
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...ark-II?page=-1

I have a cast bullet of 0.463" diameter and 477 grains and a fire formed 577/450 case of 0.474" inner neck diameter.
I am trying to use TWO wraps that take my PP bullet to 0.472" diameter to fit INTO the case w/o having to crimp it down much
in order to preserve my hideously expensive M-H Brass.

Have a look at this: "BuckShot" does much the same thing....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...5&postcount=94

I could do many wraps of Tracing Paper to get there, but there is such a stink about only 'two wraps should be used', etc....

Long Story Short - that News Print wrap is for a special situation and a special bullet in a special old 130 year old rifle....it's complicated.

Quote - "For the few I wrapped to fire form my home made 24 gauge Magtech
Martini-Henry cases, I used tracing paper (0.002 " thick)". AGAIN - before they are fire formed to 0.472 neck ID.

M_C - "That sounds about right, and tracing paper is probably very similar to onionskin.
Of the two, I would think that newsprint would be the least desirable when
trying to get it to take a permanent fold."

Yes - it is somewhat like trying to wrap the bullet in a wash rag.
Newsprint is soft and squishy.

As to your description of how the paper exits the bullet's personal space
after leaving the barrel - most interesting !

I have seen some of my paper patches do exactly like yours.

I really would like to shoot into something to be able to examine the bullet afterwards,
but the range I shoot at doesn't present me with many options.

All of our thoughts and surmises are just that w/o experimental evidence to prove
what we think is happening.

In any case, I have hit the 400 meter "Boar" several times with my Martini-Henry
and that makes my "heart soar like a hawk" !
I hit the 100 meter target in about an 8 inch circular area - until my shoulder gets sore
from that Martini whacking it so hard ! That rifle is a thumper !

Once we start getting into how to drive tacks with any reloads, my interest
wanes to zero.
Someday I may become a paper patching research scientist, but for now,
I am just out for fun - I am a confessed dilettante !

If I were shooting Deer, Elk, or Boar, perhaps all these finer details would be
of importance to me.
I only try to kill them pesky orange disks on thet thar cardboard target out
at 100 meters and the occasional metal Boar or Buffalo at 400 or 800 meters.

I am sure that many fellows (even ladies ?!) have learned quite a lot reading
the comments of the 'expurts' on this thread.

I am hopeful that we all are 'teaching' those who wish to learn.
Often the latter is the problem....

I am thinking of a line from the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" where Ballian of Ibelin
(The defender of Jerusalem) says, "What man is a man who does not make the world better."

Teach what you have learned, else it is lost forever and must then be reinvented.

May everyone reading this have a good 2012 !
...and don't worry just because the Mayan Calendar ends on Dec 21st of 2012 !

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

Quote:
I notice that Rick is rolling his patches in the opposite direction to what
Matthews shows in his book "The Paper Jacket".


Hey! What else would you expect a south paw to do??

[RMulhern]

Quote:
I notice that Rick is rolling his patches in the opposite direction to what
Matthews shows in his book "The Paper Jacket".


Hey! What else would you expect a south paw to do??

And they do stuff like onto this:


AdjsightsII by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

There's 15 rounds here and those 5 OUT of the X ring were before I got centered up after putting a new front sight on!! The X ring is 1.5".