BP in a modern cartridge

[Don McDowell]

Trail boss is higher than the other powders. There's only 9 ounces to a can. so by the time you buy 2 cans to get a pound and jigger more it's a touch higher than other powders.

[martinibelgian]

If I were to try that loading technique in a 577-450 case, I'd probably blow myself to kingdom come with that stuff...

[longranger]

Yes Don you are correct,there's only 9oz. I had not noticed that.I think the powder is worth it for some applications, reduced loads for about any cartridge.
M.B. you could "blow yourself to kingdom come" if you use the powder contradictory to the directions put out by IMR.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[Cannoneer]

I have an old Ishapore rifle I'm having a ball playing with, and I was wondering if anyone ever loads 7,62 NATO with BP or a substitute? Nope, there's nothing to be gained other than the fun of doing it. I've never loaded BP or BP substitute in anything so.....I have no clue how to go about it.

I was thinking of trying out a 200g gas check boolit over maybe some 777 or Blackhorn 209. Obviously the rest of the reloading world would think this mad, so there's not much by way of info. I know the Blackhorn is expensive, but it seems to burn cleaner. I have a few jugs of triple 7 that I have bought over the years, when Wal-Mart red tags them for cheap. Also, I would think by using the Blackhorn, I wouldn't have to use a different lube specific to BP. That right?

Thanks in advance.

First off, I'm glad there is another crazy person like me out there. Second, Blackhorn 209, 777, Shockleys Gold, APP, and Pinacle can be shot with standard wax lube used in smokeless or you can use SPG, Lyman's Black Gold or any other BP compatable lube. The 777 will give you higher pressures, but that will translate into higher velocity.

The 777 will also shoot cleaner if you compress it slightly. In fact, most of them will shoot cleaner if you compress them slightly and use a MAGNUM rifle primer. You are not trying to cram a Nitrocelulose/nitro glycerin Based Smokeless powder of unknown properties in a .308 case.

When the .303 British was first loaded it used a compressed pellet of BP that was dropped in the case BEFORE the neck and shoulder were formed on the case and then the bullet was inserted. Of course, back then, those early Enfields used Metford Rifling that was great with the BP loading but wore out quickly when the Brits switched from BP to Cordite. So the name of the rifle went from Lee-Metford to Lee-Enfield to indicate the new rifling design.

So go and have yourself some fun. Just drop your spent shells in a jug of water with a squirt of dish soap and a bit of white vinegar. Shake them up and rinse them out when you get home from the range in hot clear water and let dry.

[Muzzlehatch]

Many years ago I tried loading 20 rounds of 7.5 mm/55 Swiss ammo with 3G BP as I had a .44 Colt Army revolver that used it, and didn't have any smokeless on hand. Just poured it in and thumb pressed the bullet over the powder and fired at 200 yards. Don't remember the results except that the gun didn't blow up and I never tried the experiment again.
I understand the the .303 Mark 1 cartridge used a very highly compressed 70 grain charge and gave off a big flash and a report similar to a .300 Magnum.

[Lonegun1894]

I say go for it and find out. BP and any substitute will develop lower pressures than smokeless does, so if you're safe shooting that rifle with smokeless, this stuff should be even safer. I am not saying this to hear about you blowing yourself or your gun up, so use your usual safety precautions, but the main thing different with BP and subs is that you have to be cautious to not leave an airspace between the powder and the bullet. I have dont this successfully, although using real BP, in .38 Special, .357 Mag, .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .30-30, .308. .30-06, and .45-70. All those worked well, except the POIs were lower than normal on a few. I then went back and loaded .38 Special and .30-30 with matchheads instead of powder to see what would happen. The .30-30 had much lower velocities along with the lower POI, but the .38 was a surprize. The 38 actually printed a group the same size as my usual smokeless groups out of this snubbie except it was a couple inches higher at 15 yds, indicating a slightly lower velocity, but close. Like I said earlier, I believe you will be perfectly safe using your powder as you suggest. Just watch the airspace and fill with something if you dont want to load the way i did in the above experiments. I just filled the case to the casemouth with BP, and then compressed it with the bullet. Yes, I know this raises pressures, but it also gave good accuracy in each case, most gave a clean burn, and no pressure signs. I am also using modern weapons with modern steels. I am not sure I would load antiques this same way, so use your head. I am much more conservative in my loads for my muzzleloaders than these cartridge guns, but keep it safe either way, having had a gun blow up in my hand when I was younger and much dumber. Didnt get hurt much, but it got my attention and taught me that there's curious and adventurous, and then there's plain stupid.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Be careful. You can get enough fffg in a 30-30 case with a 31141 on top to give you significant pressure signs.

BvT

[twildman]

I dunno RM, was hoping I'd find a fun way to dispose of that 777 sitting on my shelf.

You could put it in a pile, light it and watch it go Fooofff......

[TXGunNut]

You could put it in a pile, light it and watch it go Fooofff......

Hmmm-just happen to have one of those chiminea pottery outdoor fireplaces. Wonder how big a flame a couple pounds of 777 and a couple more pounds of unuseable smokeless would make? Could probably cover the open side with foil just to keep any stray sparks from coming out, too.

[Ed in North Texas]

Hmmm-just happen to have one of those chiminea pottery outdoor fireplaces. Wonder how big a flame a couple pounds of 777 and a couple more pounds of unuseable smokeless would make? Could probably cover the open side with foil just to keep any stray sparks from coming out, too.

The way this year has gone, you need to make danged sure there are no sparks coming out. We don't need any more fires. What little bit of rain we've had hasn't made a whole lot of difference. The grass still crunches when you walk on it, though there's a few green shoots in the dead brown now.

[martinibelgian]

No, when using the powder according to the directions - If you fill a 577-450 cases to the base of the bullet with BP, you're probably at about 100 grains, if not more. Trailboss is a pretty fast-burning powder, and when the case volume goes up, that will cause problems. Might work fine in a 45-70, but when you more than double the case capacity, things will turn out pretty hairy... And let's not even mention the real BP express cartridges, where the powder/bullet weight ratio is even worse.

[cajun shooter]

My question is why do persons go to the BPCR section to ask questions about the fakes? Then they even defend the use of such powders and why you should shoot them for the easy clean up and the lube's can be anything.
If you want to shoot these fakes then this is America but why not go to the owners and moderators and request a thread that is for chemical formed powders or your choice as long as it is not Black Powder Subs because this they are not. To me they are nothing more than a way to circumvent the laws of many states that have primitive hunting seasons. 777 was made for inlines and in no way shape or form are they anything close to being what was intended. It's a shame to take what was once a pure step back in time and turn it into well I got my buck at 300 yards with my BP rifle. No stalking, or worrying if the cap will fire or using a leather hood to cover the flint and powder. What is the sport of shooting a powder that only smokes? You have no loud boom, sparks and flames from the barrel. You only have smoke which you would be writing in to some forum asking what can I do to cut down on the smoke I am getting when I shoot this 777?Just as in SASS they shoot the fakes and then sign on as being frontier shooters, Give me a Break!! PS For those of you who live where there is no BP, order it in. If forbidden by law then get all shooters to have the laws changed. Educate the ones who think all the wives tales are true.

[Springfield]

Cajun: Right on! Real bp forever, even in guns not designed for it.

[nwellons]

I know of one instance where BP was used extensively in a military Revolver designed for smokeless. The 1895 Russian Nagant 7 shot gas seal revolver had a lot of use in WWI with black powder because of Russian smokeless powder shortages.

I only shoot BP in my Nagants because I like the smoke, smell, and noise. I have no leading problems with my pan lubed boolits and clean up is easy enough for me. I shoot my .44 Russian antique revolver and my .42 Berdan Russian rifle every month at the range so adding the Nagants to the clean-up is no problem.

[DeanWinchester]

My question is why do persons go to the BPCR section to ask questions about the fakes? Then they even defend the use of such powders and why you should shoot them for the easy clean up and the lube's can be anything.
If you want to shoot these fakes then this is America but why not go to the owners and moderators and request a thread that is for chemical formed powders or your choice as long as it is not Black Powder Subs because this they are not. To me they are nothing more than a way to circumvent the laws of many states that have primitive hunting seasons. 777 was made for inlines and in no way shape or form are they anything close to being what was intended. It's a shame to take what was once a pure step back in time and turn it into well I got my buck at 300 yards with my BP rifle. No stalking, or worrying if the cap will fire or using a leather hood to cover the flint and powder. What is the sport of shooting a powder that only smokes? You have no loud boom, sparks and flames from the barrel. You only have smoke which you would be writing in to some forum asking what can I do to cut down on the smoke I am getting when I shoot this 777?Just as in SASS they shoot the fakes and then sign on as being frontier shooters, Give me a Break!! PS For those of you who live where there is no BP, order it in. If forbidden by law then get all shooters to have the laws changed. Educate the ones who think all the wives tales are true.

Good lord, what's with all the hating? I didn't realize that purists were so sensitive. I apologize.

Personally I don't own anything that uses BP, I haven't done much with BP in anything and not really interested in much of it either. I just asked the question with the thought of goofing off and playing with something different. I didn't realize it was verboten to post it here.

[JSnover]

No need to get upset over the "new black," it's always good to have options. I have no beef with the new black powder rifles either, though I'm not interested in trying them. If smokeless powder and cartidge ammuntion had not been invented, the firearms would still have continued to evolve. Lots of folks would be burning charcoal to launch jacketed bullets in plastic sabots in their inline, stainless-barrel, synthetic-stocked front-stuffers and sizing up targets waaaaaaay out there through a variable, battery-powered scope. And we'd all think it was the greatest thing since the minie ball.

[montana_charlie]

I didn't realize that purists were so sensitive.

Now, you do. Learn from it ...

[Rafe Covington]

Now, you do. Learn from it ...

Spoken like a real *******.

Rafe

[cajun shooter]

You are taking what I said and trying to turn it around in your favor. I said this is America and your free to do and shoot what you wish. My problem is that the title header that you posted to is Black Powder Cartridge and your question has to do with fake powders. We have people do this all the time as they are trying to drive a Corvair to Corvette Rally. You also asked about lubes for BP and you don't even own a gun or perhaps have never even shot a BP gun to understand the difference. At the top of the topics section there is a place for your question and a few others. There is not a single word of hate in my post but you again are trying to make yourself correct. Why not do some research in our forum instead of using one of the topic sections to play around as you stated.

[TXGunNut]

My only problem with subs is they don't work for me, they're expensive, and they really aren't any easier to clean up after. My only problem with folks that use them is that they can't possibly be having as much fun as I am and I'm all about having fun and helping other folks do the same. Shooting BP and lead in a cartridge and gun of the era is like stepping back in time 120 years. There's nothing like it. But hey, to each his (or her) own.