Renegade results

[versifier]

Some age old "wisdom" dies hard. There was a whole series of those photos with different kinds of powder including black, flake, extruded. I'm still not sure I want to be the one to test it out.
And then there was the one about how microgroove barrels won't shoot cast.
Lastly, I once made an easy $100 from an idiot who would not believe me when I told him I could put out a lit cigarette in a cup full of gasoline. After he paid me, he asked if it was really gasoline. I handed him a book of matches and told him to light one and drop it in and see for himself. Cost him both his eyebrows, some hair, and a change of underwear. Expensive morning.

[PatMarlin]

Catboat, it is great to read someone that thinks and shoots like I do. I just disagree with the static in powder measures. I've been using one for over 50 years. My current Redding has loaded many, many pounds of black powder. Static will not light off black powder!

I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?

[catboat]

I err on the side of safety.

First, I wrote that I don't use a rotating volumetric powder measure for black powder.

Secondly, I suggested contacting both Lyman and Lee for there input about blackpowder use in their powder measures.

I will admit, my comments about static electricity and black powder are from readings, not actual experience.

The way I look at it, you only have to be wrong once. If I do that, I may be blinded. That's not worth the risk to me. Again, I don't have a need to load from these powder measures.

You have to wonder why Lyman redesigned their model 55 measure. I guess their lawyers saw a risk. See below cut and pasted from Lyman's website:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/scales.htm
************************************************** ********
55 Classic Black Powder Measure

Lyman has redesigned the 55 Powder Measure for both smokeless and black powder. A must for black powder cartridge silhouette and cowboy action shooters. The internal metering bars rotate in a non-sparking brass sleeve. A large non-static aluminum powder reservoir holds a pound of black powder. The unique three-slide adjustment bars are the key to consistent accuracy from small pistol charges to the largest rifle charges with accuracy to a fraction of a grain. Mounts on the bench or directly on a press or powder measure stand and includes a 7/8 x 14 adapter. Model without drop tubes also available.
************************************************** **********

I'm not setting up camp for arguing or defending this point-I again state I don't have direct experience in this application. If it works for you, then that's more experience than I have. We all hope it doesn't become a "one in a million" thing. My biggest concern would be to be safe, or to eliminate that freak chance of the worst case scenario.

For a giggle, email Lyman, RCBS, Redding, Lee if they would endorse using real black powder in their cast iron or plastic powder measures. Curious to what they would say to that.

Be safe. I for one would prefer to keep my eyes, as weak as they are, at the current level of use. It's just not worth the risk. But, mine is zero, as I only use smokelss powders in them.

[PatMarlin]

....and ifn you git blown up like a cartoon, using the new 55 classic will pay in a lawsuit..

[Slamfire]

There is a world of difference between static discharge and sparks thrown by steel tools. I think sparks will ignite black powder, at least it did for more'n 200 years worth of flintlocks.

[PatMarlin]

You must have a PHD or sumpthin' to finally be the one here to bring that one to light..

Or nowin' this croud maybe not..

[Dale53]

This should finally answer the question about static and black powder (but it won't).

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...ks/sparks.html

I've been using a conventional powder measure as well as a bronze powder measure for over fifty years with no problem. If static electricity were a problem with black no one would be able to open a steel powder can in the winter .

Dale53

[Guido4198]

PatMarlin;141956]I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?

It turns out that if you put a full 70 gns. of blackpowder in your 45/70 case, it will be pretty much filled... then try to seat a 500 gn. soft lead bullet over it...you will find that the seating operation is putting so much pressure on the powder charge that you will likely deform the bullet. when properly used, a drop tube fills the case in such a manner as to settle the powder to a greater extent than merely pouring into the case from a measure.

[wills]

[QUOTE=PatMarlin;141915]
The Lyman 55 has brass slides but it's still a steel housing IIRC. I think their BP moldel is the Model 5?
QUOTE]

The 55 classic

[PatMarlin]

I want one.

[PatMarlin]

PatMarlin;141956]I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?

It turns out that if you put a full 70 gns. of blackpowder in your 45/70 case, it will be pretty much filled... then try to seat a 500 gn. soft lead bullet over it...you will find that the seating operation is putting so much pressure on the powder charge that you will likely deform the bullet. when properly used, a drop tube fills the case in such a manner as to settle the powder to a greater extent than merely pouring into the case from a measure.

Thank you for that info Guido.

[44man]

I believe the Lyman BP measure has aluminum for the tube. The rest of the measure is exactly the same as the old ones.
I like the measure to load BPCR because I can throw a charge into the pan and either go to the scale or right to the drop tube.
Pat, the drop tube settles powder so it is lower in the case. You still never compress the powder with a boolit. You use a compression die then seat the boolit to touch the wad only. No pressure on the boolit! Most boolits are hand seated, no sizing. Just need a little flare on the brass.
With a flinchlock, the sparks are not static but tiny pieces of steel raked off the frizzen. The heat generated from the scaping action turns the steel white hot and it can burn through the coating on BP. A failure to fire the pan is when you don't get any steel cut from a dull flint and any little spark is not hot enough, doesn't enter the powder or doesn't have any steel. A flash in the pan is when everything is working and the pan fires but the touch hole is blocked.

[44man]

Some guys just pour the powder in the case, then use some kind of a vibrator to settle the powder before compressing.

[Dale53]

I have shot lots of BPCR Silhouette over a period of fifteen years. I use a turret press (Lyman) with a manual powder measure. I tried both a drop tube (a LONG one) as compared with just dropping it out of a measure (using a compression die in both cases) and found no detectable difference in accuracy. Off the bench, 1" five shot groups at 100 yards with the 40/65 and 45/70 were obtainable. Groups at 500 yards, in good conditions were in the neighborhood of 6-8" (ten shot groups). As Kenny Wasserburger can tell you, conditions play a BIG part of results at the longer ranges.

At any rate, I settled on using a powder measure (no drop tube) and a compression die and I never lost a match because of my load.

Soft bullets (i use 30/1 lead/tin in BPCR) are easily deformed. I am extremely careful to see that my expander stem is .001" smaller than my bullet. After the brass case is expanded, the brass, due to springback, will have .002" tension on the bullet. I find this the "sweet spot" for sufficient resistance for the powder to burn well and not small enough to damage the soft bullet. I consider this VERY important for long term accuracy. I use a LDPE wad of .060" thickness under the bullet. The powder charge is comressed so that the bullet base just touches the wad with no more than .005" compression. THIS is important.

Powder compression was done by loading on the range and adjusting the powder charge upward from no compression and then letting the rifle and load decide how much compression worked most accurately. Just as a for instance, Goex Cartridge Grade required .350" compression. Swiss required no more than .035" compression for best results. Loading on the range really speeds up the operation. I recommend it highly.

However, don't take my word for it, try it yourself and find out what works for YOU.

Dale53

[joeb33050]

Wednesday I shot Traditions .490" balls with the .0082"-.009" cotton patches covered in Bore Butter. Throw 60 grains of FFFg Goex from a Lyman 55 to a pill bottle, through a funnel into the barrel. Ball on the patch material in the bore, tap the ball in with the rubber end of the mallet. Short starter it in 6" or so, down on the powder with the rod.
It shot pretty well for 5 shots, gradually getting harder and harder to get the ball down on the powder. By the 7th shot I was hammering the short starter, then the rod to get the ball down. The fouling seems to be worst 8"-10" down the barrel.
Back to a damp paper towel patch then a dry one, and loading was again possible. Lots of fiddling but no real progress, with some 1' flyers.
Went to Ft. L. Bass Pro, got some more balls etc and a bottle of 777. I now have Pyrodex RS, Goex FFFg and 777.
I'm getting a lot of help on two forums with this, and find that opinions vary widely. I can't take all the advice, I won't live long enough to try it all.
Bore butter is good/bad
FFFg vs. FFg, Pyrodex is no good, 777 is no good, yes they are good.
One thing I do know is that those who suggest .495" balls and/or thick patches aren't talking about my gun. Getting a .490" ball and a .018" TC bore butter lubed patch in this gun is a chore, and after ~5 shots it's hammer time. No living human being is going to get a .495" ball and .020" patch in this barrel after five shots.
I'm going to try the 777 in a week or so.
I'm still stuck.
Maybe I'll send this barrel to somebody to try, to see if it's me?
Thanks;
joe b.

[wills]

Drop tube discussions
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=640


Powder measures discussion
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611

[Rattus58]

I'm askin' cause I don't know- why do they use drop tubes with BP cartridge loads?

A drop tube helps maintain consistency in your shooting. Some shooters I have seen will load powder into the volume measure and then tap it till it settles, load some more, and tap again, cleaning off the excess back into a funnel into the powder can.

They will then pour this "tapped" charge into the bore using a drop tube. One benefit of this is that even on a swabbed bore, there is less likely any powder that will stick to the sides of the bore and the pour probably keeps the powder "settled" at the breech. Then a wad is pushed onto the powder then the ball is loaded onto the wad without mashing it.

Aloha...

[joeb33050]

I ordered a Green Mountain 50 caliber round ball barrel from Track Of The Wolf, yesterday. This is a 32" barrel, the Renegade is 27" as I measure it. Track is less expensive than buying from GM direct. I wonder why.
So, I'll sell the Renegade barrel and hope that the GM barrel solves all the problems.
joe brennan

[twotoescharlie]

ordered one from TOW first of Dec. 06, has been at GR since Jan.03-07, shooting 5-6 inches to right of aiming point @ 50 yds. R/S adjusted as far left as it will go,F/S drifted 1/16 to right, they say nothing is wrong but they are going to send a replacement barrel, go figure.
Now I might be crazy but I ain't stupid. I have been shooting M/L for over 50 years and am pretty well up on the idiosyncresies of muzzle loaders as far loads ball size, patch thickness,precut patches, muzzle cut patches,etc
as I stated on the first page of this subject (i think) try some" moose milk" for patch lube and you won't be bothered with having to wipe the bore every 4-5 shots unless there is something wrong with your barrel.
just a little advice from someone who has been shooting black powder for a long time, take it or leave it, just trying to help, not trying to be a smart A.
I would really like to see you get this rifle up and running. the potential is there.


TTC

[versifier]

TTC,
Sounds like a crown problem. Their finishing process is (or was when I worked for them and ran the machine in the 80's) done on a turret lathe. Three step process: Trim to length with a cutoff tool, Crown with a countersink, Round off the outer edge with a specialized cutter. If the octagonal clamping jig slipped, and/or the countersink loosened in its holder and the result was slightly off center, that would cause the problem. (Also it could be the rear sight mount hole was offcenter, but that would have been very obvious to you if that were the cause.) I would think that it would/should have been obvious to the machine operator as it ought to have made a hell of a lot of noise, but maybe the process is now automated. Just out of curiosity, how big were the off center groups?